Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number, its simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Ditto. Or are you an expert in the fees charged for outsourcing, now?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 10:45, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far as I'm concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent
to one, which amounts to the same thing.

As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not
paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract. I
pay monthly for my landline/broadband access, but that's as far as I go
with telecomms. I use the landline extensively, so inclusive calls makes
sense. I use the mobile so rarely (for outgoing calls, people seem to
think I don't have a landline, so always ring me on the mobile, go
figure) that it is nothing short of idiotic to pay almost as much as I
do for the landline for it.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 09:25:16 on
Sat, 20 Jul 2019, David Walters remarked:

If someone has root on the device I don't think any individual app can
keep itself secure anymore. Many apps will try and detect a jailbroken
device and disable themselves but it isn't clear to me that that detection
is infallible. Better to take reasonable steps to secure the device
which includes security patches IMHO.

My difficulty with this is that even when I had a phone which was
receiving Android updates, they were few and far between. And most
people will be in that same boat.

And yet there's not utter chaos that can be traced back to exploits.

I'm not saying that it's possible to ignore the possibility completely,
but there comes a point when a lot of phones don't have much worth
stealing from them.

I's far far more important for people to moderate their *ordinary*
behaviour on phones, to reduce the risks. As I've said in similar
contexts in the pat, patching your Operating System, or running a Virus
Checker, is very unlikely to stop you being conned into buying a fake
Rolex, or having a password written on a post-it note.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 16:45:19 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Clank remarked:
You can have one-month rolling contracts, say £10 a month.
Some operators may call it PAYG but it's still a contract as far
as I'm concerned and I wouldn't touch one with a very long pole.

The difference between 30-day contract, and pay as you go, is very
simple - with PAYG you pay in advance, with the contract you pay
in arrears. (For the calls at least, if not the standing charge
- although these days most calls are covered by the standing
charge anyway so it does become slightly harder to discern the
difference.)

That may have been truer in the past, but nowadays there are many what
I've called hybrid deals, which are PAYG but billed monthly in arrears.

There is no "contract" in the mobile phone sense.

To complicate things further, the first mobile contract I had was paid
monthly in advance for the "rental and bundle" with "out of bundle"
calls paid monthly in arrears. I have no reason to believe today's
contracts are different.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

In message , at 11:06:30 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:43:43 on Thu, 18 Jul
2019, remarked:
Ones where the credit rolls over and you don't have to make a regular
calls to keep them alive, aren't quite as common as you claim. The
networks hate them because they tend to get used in "glovebox" phones
were they have all the costs of maintaining the number and the billing
records, for virtually no revenue.

Oh come on, its costs them precisely £0.00 to maintain a number,
its simply

data in a database.

Ah, the marginal costs fallacy rears its ugly head.

The only cost involved in an unused number is the cost to the user when the
phone company disconnects the SIM. The rest of it costs nothing because the
infrastructure would be needed regardless and linking a phone number to a
SIM id is probably a few hundred bytes or less in a DB. You could store the
entire UK phone book and every cellphone IMEI number on a USB stick with room
to
spare never mind a fully fledged datacentre.

Let me know when you need a new spade, if that one wears out.

Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

They may well have, but any charges relating to the physical layer RF systems
will have nothing to do with how many subscribers the network has in its DB
unless they have so many they need to upgrade.

Ditto. Or are you an expert in the fees charged for outsourcing, now?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.
--
Roland Perry

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was coveringfor brother
 

On 20/07/2019 14:19, Clank wrote:
MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent to one, which amounts to the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract.

Well, it might be to you, but it isn't to anyone else. Redefining
the meaning of words may make you think you're winning an
argument in your own head, but you really ain't.

If you are "paying as you go", in advance, and with no outstanding
commitment whatsoever should you choose to stop paying at any
time, then you do not have a contract. You just have a regular
spending habit.

As I said, semantics. I won't argue with you any more, you're entitled
to your view, but please allow me to have mine.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

MissRiaElaine Wrote in message:
Now that *is* semantics. In all but name, it's a contract. Or equivalent to one, which amounts to the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, PAYG is just that. Paying per month is not paying as you go, it's paying regularly, which is to me a contract.

Well, it might be to you, but it isn't to anyone else. Redefining
the meaning of words may make you think you're winning an
argument in your own head, but you really ain't.

If you are "paying as you go", in advance, and with no outstanding
commitment whatsoever should you choose to stop paying at any
time, then you do not have a contract. You just have a regular
spending habit.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train wascovering for brother
 

Roland Perry Wrote in message:
There is no "contract" in the mobile phone sense.

I admit it's a long time since I studied contract law, but I don't
remember "a mobile phone sense" being one of the criteria the law
uses to determine if a contract exists. They were all boring
things like offer, acceptance, intent to deal and other such
boring stuff.

A contract either is or it isn't. I have two SIMs in my phone
right now - one is PAYG, one is a contract. The latter is an
automatically renewing 30-day contract, but that doesn't make it
any less of a contract.

To complicate things further, the first mobile contract I had was paid monthly in advance for the "rental and bundle" with "out of bundle" calls paid monthly in arrears.

That is literally exactly what I said.

--

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:13:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:06:30 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, remarked:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:54:13 +0100
Ok Mr Telecoms Expert, exactly how much disk space does all the relevant
information about a single cellular phone number take up then? Obviously you
have the figures to hand so please share them.

I can't explain something like this when you have completely the wrong
architectural and business model as an underlying assumption.

Go on, live dangerously, give it a go. How much data does it take up? Or are
you going to claim that telecoms companies use dilithium quantum computers
that store information in hyperspace rather than standard databases or hash
maps?

Unless the system is completely insane there should be no relation. Perhaps
you're going to tell us next that radio stations transmitter charges are
based on the number of listeners they have?

A Freeview-type transmitter might well charge based on the number of
stations you wish to transmit (eg CH4 and Ch4+1, costing more than just
Ch4).

Yes, congratulations - because each station takes up bandwidth. How much
bandwidth does an unused phone number use?

Apart from that, your ability to fail to distinguish between
broadcasting and telecoms speaks volumes.

Your refusal to acknowledge an obvious analogy speaks volumes that you've
been painted into a corner.

Dual SIM phones was:Worker killed by Southern train was covering for brother
 

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 08:04:34 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 06:48:46 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked:
No PAYG deals require monthly top-ups.

Yes they can.
para 15 in :-
https://www.o2.co.uk/termsandconditi...o-tariff-terms
and IIRC any other providers where you get more than just a simple
charge for each minute, megabyte or text on PAYG.

Para 15?

Take a wild stab at para 1.5 instead.

Yes, have a missing ".".