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#41
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Electric Shapps
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens, and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited. |
#42
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Electric Shapps
"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked: So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average second hand petrol model achieves that Perhaps not for long? Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area. Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+. They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily tighter. At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the egregious way Euro5 diesels were. They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central London. Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then That'll work well as a tabloid headline Have you only just noticed? nope, but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of paying the charge on a day to day basis. whereas "Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is not being able to drive in the zone at all [2] ISTM the two states are miles apart. tim [1] I even postulated it myself [2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S Circular then it most certainly is |
#43
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Electric Shapps
"David Walters" wrote in message ... On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. and what do the other half do? tim |
#44
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Electric Shapps
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked: So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average second hand petrol model achieves that Perhaps not for long? Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area. Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+. They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily tighter. At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the egregious way Euro5 diesels were. They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central London. Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then That'll work well as a tabloid headline Have you only just noticed? nope, but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of paying the charge on a day to day basis. whereas "Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is not being able to drive in the zone at all [2] ISTM the two states are miles apart. tim [1] I even postulated it myself [2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S Circular then it most certainly is Just to make clear, I'm not aware of any current plans to ban higher emissions cars from the central area, but I do believe that fewer vehicles will be exempt from the T charge as time progresses, just as fewer are exempt from the C charge than used to be. In time, only ZEVs may be exempt from charges in the centre of London. Eventually, only ZEVs may be allowed into that area, but that is years away, and depends on lots more BEVs and PHEVs being on the road. |
#45
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Electric Shapps
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote: On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens, and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited. In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we can loose a lot before we drop 16%. Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell, include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have off street parking. There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could charge at home. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf [2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/ |
#46
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Electric Shapps
In message , at 14:58:36 on
Mon, 9 Sep 2019, David Walters remarked: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens, and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited. In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we can loose a lot before we drop 16%. Then there's the houses with more than one car, and with garages which are either too small to put a modern car into, or are being used as lock-ups instead. Modern estate houses (typically link-detached) built in the last 20yrs will also tend not to have a usable space in front of the garage, courtesy of planners who wrongly believe that restricting parking to one per house will restrict the number of cars people have. It's also the case that most blocks of garages (another feature of estates) are no supplied with power, and are sufficiently far from the associated houses that you couldn't even run an extension lead safely. You could add to that the many garages at the bottoms of people's gardens, where power could be run, but at some considerable expense. -- Roland Perry |
#47
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Electric Shapps
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could charge at home. So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in. I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than charging points everywhere. -- Ria in Aberdeen [Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct] |
#48
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Electric Shapps
MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote: There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could charge at home. So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in. I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than charging points everywhere. Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter, quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic materials as batteries do. But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will have to use batteries. When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars. Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a lot quicker to charge than current ones. |
#49
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Electric Shapps
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: David Walters wrote: On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens, and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited. In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we can loose a lot before we drop 16%. Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell, include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have off street parking. There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could charge at home. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf [2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/ BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number. It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively small number in London. |
#50
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Electric Shapps
"David Walters" wrote in message ... On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: David Walters wrote: On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote: As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of 40,000 that my parents live in. Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install a private charger like Grant Shapps. That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens, and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited. In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we can loose a lot before we drop 16%. As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no alternative off street parking Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell, include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have off street parking. There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could charge at home. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf [2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/ who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place of abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500. |
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