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Old September 9th 19, 11:16 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.


Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.


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Old September 9th 19, 11:21 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like
the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of
time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge,
and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in
central
London.


Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline


Have you only just noticed?


nope,

but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.

whereas

"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]

ISTM the two states are miles apart.

tim


[1] I even postulated it myself

[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is





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Old September 9th 19, 11:23 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.


Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


and what do the other half do?

tim



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Old September 9th 19, 11:52 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like
the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of
time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge,
and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in
central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline


Have you only just noticed?


nope,

but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.

whereas

"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]

ISTM the two states are miles apart.

tim


[1] I even postulated it myself

[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is


Just to make clear, I'm not aware of any current plans to ban higher
emissions cars from the central area, but I do believe that fewer vehicles
will be exempt from the T charge as time progresses, just as fewer are
exempt from the C charge than used to be. In time, only ZEVs may be exempt
from charges in the centre of London. Eventually, only ZEVs may be allowed
into that area, but that is years away, and depends on lots more BEVs and
PHEVs being on the road.

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Old September 9th 19, 01:58 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.


Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.


In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


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Old September 9th 19, 02:16 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 14:58:36 on
Mon, 9 Sep 2019, David Walters remarked:

As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.


In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.


Then there's the houses with more than one car, and with garages which
are either too small to put a modern car into, or are being used as
lock-ups instead.

Modern estate houses (typically link-detached) built in the last 20yrs
will also tend not to have a usable space in front of the garage,
courtesy of planners who wrongly believe that restricting parking to one
per house will restrict the number of cars people have.

It's also the case that most blocks of garages (another feature of
estates) are no supplied with power, and are sufficiently far from the
associated houses that you couldn't even run an extension lead safely.

You could add to that the many garages at the bottoms of people's
gardens, where power could be run, but at some considerable expense.
--
Roland Perry
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Old September 9th 19, 09:40 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Electric Shapps

On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.


So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
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Old September 9th 19, 10:43 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.


So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.


Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.


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Old September 9th 19, 11:32 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.


In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf


[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

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Old September 10th 19, 09:26 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.


In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.


As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that
every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short
of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no
alternative off street parking

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place of
abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500.





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