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Old September 8th 19, 11:23 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.


At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.


They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.


I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.


Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.

But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.


It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.


I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.


I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.


Sometimes people use "M25" as a proxy for "GLA area", even though they
don't co-ibcide.

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
--
Roland Perry

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Old September 8th 19, 11:29 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.


I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.


There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.


There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).
--
Roland Perry
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Old September 8th 19, 11:42 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Electric Shapps

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:28:14 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.


They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.


I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.

It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.


Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.


True, but he was virtue-signalling. I also wonder how many other
conventional cars his family runs?


But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.


It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.


I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).

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Old September 8th 19, 12:00 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 08/09/2019 12:29, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:58:26 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:
On 08/09/2019 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,¬* Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.
¬*At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.


¬*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.


There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.


There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).


The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old September 8th 19, 12:06 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.


I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?


The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).


Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
--
Roland Perry


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Old September 8th 19, 12:09 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 13:00:57 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:

*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.


There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation of GLA/M25).


The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.


Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.

So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
--
Roland Perry
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Old September 8th 19, 01:13 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Electric Shapps

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.


I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?


The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.


So no problem?


London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).


Where do you put the transfer bus stations.


Sounds like it's a non-issue?
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Old September 8th 19, 01:15 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,463
Default Electric Shapps

On 08/09/2019 13:06, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.


I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?


The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.


Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I
suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).


Where do you put the transfer bus stations.


If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old September 8th 19, 01:16 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Electric Shapps

On 08/09/2019 13:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:00:57 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Graeme Wall remarked:

¬*I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.

There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside¬* the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.


¬*There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation¬* of GLA/M25).


The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.


Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.



You left out served by tube trains :-)


So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.


But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old September 8th 19, 03:00 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Posts: 9,694
Default Electric Shapps

In message , at 14:13:57 on
Sun, 8 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:06:49 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:42:15 on Sun, 8 Sep 2019,
Recliner remarked:

It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.

I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?


The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.


So no problem?


Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).


Where do you put the transfer bus stations.


Sounds like it's a non-issue?


Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
--
Roland Perry


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