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Near miss on Met
Don't know if this has already been posted:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? |
Near miss on Met
wrote:
No, I don't think ut has been posted. Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? It looks like it was perhaps a track/points fault that took the Chiltern train across a crossover towards the Chesham line. The driver duly stopped. https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2020/06/23-near-collision-at-chalfont-.html THE RAIB is investigating a reported near-collision between a London Underground train and a National Rail service on Sunday night. An image from the scene shows a Chiltern Railways unit and a train of Metropolitan Line S-Stock at a stand just a few metres apart at Chalfont & Latimer, the junction for the Chesham branch. Reports have claimed that the Chiltern train took the wrong route at a crossover, taking it towards the Metropolitan unit, and other unconfirmed reports say that the points and track were damaged. Transport for London said: ‘We apologise to customers disrupted by the closure of the Metropolitan line between Chalfont & Latimer and Chesham. This is the result of an incident involving a Chiltern Railways train near Chalfont & Latimer station. We are working with Chiltern Railways to determine exactly what happened, and our engineers will repair the railway to return it to service as quickly as possible.’ The Transport for London website was still reporting no service on the Chesham branch on Tuesday afternoon, and attributing the suspension to a ‘track fault’. Chiltern Railways said: ‘We have an excellent safety record and are working with the Rail Accident Investigation Branch to understand the causes of this incident.’ |
Near miss on Met
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:55:36 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: No, I don't think ut has been posted. Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? It looks like it was perhaps a track/points fault that took the Chiltern train across a crossover towards the Chesham line. The driver duly stopped. https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2020/06/23-near-collision-at-chalfont-.html THE RAIB is investigating a reported near-collision between a London Underground train and a National Rail service on Sunday night. An image from the scene shows a Chiltern Railways unit and a train of Metropolitan Line S-Stock at a stand just a few metres apart at Chalfont & Latimer, the junction for the Chesham branch. Reports have claimed that the Chiltern train took the wrong route at a crossover, taking it towards the Metropolitan unit, and other unconfirmed reports say that the points and track were damaged. By the train or before it went across? A Chiltern train shouldn't have crossed over, so it was presumably a points fault that took it on to the wrong line. It couldn't have been going very fast or would have derailed. The train would have just stopped at the station, so it would have been moving slowly. I think this is the crossover: https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9 The Transport for London website was still reporting no service on the Chesham branch on Tuesday afternoon, and attributing the suspension to a ‘track fault’. Probably the most serious type of fault other than the rail collapsing. This could have been seriously nasty. Yes, if it had happened to a train that hadn't just stopped, there would have been a head-on collision. |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:42:19 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: I think this is the crossover: https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9 Looks like it. Seems to allow trains on the main line to reach the Chesham branch. I suspect they'll be going back to a chesham shuttle service for a while. |
Near miss on Met
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:42:19 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: I think this is the crossover: https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9 Looks like it. Seems to allow trains on the main line to reach the Chesham branch. I suspect they'll be going back to a chesham shuttle service for a while. They can't, at least not with S stock, as it's too long for the bay platform. They'd have to borrow a half-length train from another line. In any case, normal Chesham services now seem to have been restored. |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100
"Clive D.W. Feather" wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aunched-commut er -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. (2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed. Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would have prevented these 2 possibilities? |
Near miss on Met
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100 "Clive D.W. Feather" wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aunched-commut er -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. (2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed. Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would have prevented these 2 possibilities? Yes, it still has trip cocks. The new signalling hasn't got that far. So, unlikely to be a SPaD. |
Near miss on Met
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line. That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train should normally go that way. (2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed. I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver went through a red light at low speed. (3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the Chiltern train got a green signal. Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight towards an eastbound Met train. (4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern driver to pass the signal at danger. Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to Chesham, regardless of the signal? (5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling. Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier? (6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the train approached them. That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully checked. I'm sure there are more possibilities. We'll have to wait and see what the RAIB have to say. Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains take some distance to stop. Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been travelling very fast. |
Near miss on Met
Recliner wrote:
Clive D.W. Feather wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. Looking at more pics, I'm leaning more to this theory. The trains seem to have almost met when the Met train was standing at the C&L platform, so it must have been an eastbound Chiltern train meeting a westbound Met train, probably heading for Chesham. So the Chiltern train must have run through and damaged the trailing points set for the Chesham branch. But why didn't the tripcocks stop it well before then? Was it a signalling fault, rather than a SPaD? I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line. That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train should normally go that way. (2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed. I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver went through a red light at low speed. (3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the Chiltern train got a green signal. Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight towards an eastbound Met train. (4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern driver to pass the signal at danger. Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to Chesham, regardless of the signal? (5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling. Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier? (6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the train approached them. That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully checked. I'm sure there are more possibilities. We'll have to wait and see what the RAIB have to say. Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains take some distance to stop. Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been travelling very fast. |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. This seems the most likely to me. They are reporting that a set of points was damaged, which would have happened when the Chiltern train trailed through them. The LU trainstop would have been at the stop signal, which is (Google satellite map) close to the facing turnout which sent the Chiltern train onto the wrong line. Because the line was equipped with trainstops, not AWS, the driver would not have had a warning at the distant signal, but he was probably slowing down for the station. |
Near miss on Met
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather" wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. This seems the most likely to me. They are reporting that a set of points was damaged, which would have happened when the Chiltern train trailed through them. The LU trainstop would have been at the stop signal, which is (Google satellite map) close to the facing turnout which sent the Chiltern train onto the wrong line. Because the line was equipped with trainstops, not AWS, the driver would not have had a warning at the distant signal, but he was probably slowing down for the station. Yes, considering that the Chiltern train should already have been slowing for the C&L station, I'm surprised it got so far after hitting the trainstop. I suppose it's lucky it wasn't derailed when it ran through the Chesham-set points. |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:37 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100 "Clive D.W. Feather" wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aunched-commut er -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. (2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed. Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would have prevented these 2 possibilities? Yes, it still has trip cocks. The new signalling hasn't got that far. So, unlikely to be a SPaD. Presumably Chiltern won't be paying for the met line train control system to be fitted to their DMUs so I guess TfL will have to fork out for that when the time comes. I wonder if its worth it given the trains on that section arn't exactly frequent. |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:37 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Clive D.W. Feather wrote: In article , writes Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Possibilities based on what I can see: (1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed. I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line. That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train should normally go that way. Anyone know if a Chiltern train has ever gone to Chesham for some special run or other reason? |
Near miss on Met
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ Guy Gorton |
Near miss on Met
Guy Gorton wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. |
Near miss on Met
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton |
Near miss on Met
On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA |
Near miss on Met
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100, Peter Able wrote:
On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam handover in 1961. Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground between. Guy Gorton |
Near miss on Met
Guy Gorton wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100, Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam handover in 1961. Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground between. How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really as little as four minutes? It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? |
Near miss on Met
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. |
Near miss on Met
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. Yes. And, oddly enough, it's still the datum point for the whole LU network. |
Near miss on Met
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100, Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam handover in 1961. Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground between. How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really as little as four minutes? It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? The event I attended was well advertised and there were a lot of railway buffs watching so it took quite a long time. It may even have been a Special from Baker Street but I cannot remember. Guy Gorton |
Near miss on Met
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Near miss on Met
On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! PA |
Near miss on Met
On 26/06/2020 09:17, Guy Gorton wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100, Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam handover in 1961. Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground between. Guy Gorton Never got further than Rickmansworth because of the damned restriction they placed on the five-bob Twin Rovers. So I only saw the high-speed loco changes. What would HSE say about that process nowadays? PA |
Near miss on Met
Peter Able wrote:
On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? |
Near miss on Met
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote: It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail. |
Near miss on Met
Trolleybus wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail. Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V? |
Near miss on Met
On 26/06/2020 20:27, Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0 37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km. PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!) |
Near miss on Met
Peter Able wrote:
On 26/06/2020 20:27, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0 37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected. Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km. PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!) Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the LU network. |
Near miss on Met
Recliner wrote:
Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100, Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nched-commuter -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. PA The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam handover in 1961. Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground between. How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really as little as four minutes? It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? There is a short clip on you tube which shows part of a change, https://youtu.be/tIZ1OvYxFFk You would have thought that with the change taking place in the same spot every time the crews would have been well practised at stopping in just the right place a short gap in the conductor rails could have been left to minimise any risk to the shunter, instead the arrangement was protection boarding each side of the conductor rails and wood infilling between those surrounding the negative rail and the running rails. When dry I suppose the wood would have been a fairly good insulator and if thick enough probably was even when the surface was damp. GH |
Near miss on Met
On 27/06/2020 21:33, Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 20:27, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0 37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected. Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km. PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!) Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the LU network. I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London. Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham to Baker Street. The same comparison applies. As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So Chesham wins the meander case, too. As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74 minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes - plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the Chesham shuttle? Old "facts", all wrong. PA |
Near miss on Met
Peter Able wrote:
On 27/06/2020 21:33, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 20:27, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0 37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected. Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km. PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!) Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the LU network. I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London. Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham to Baker Street. The same comparison applies. As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So Chesham wins the meander case, too. As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74 minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes - plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the Chesham shuttle? Old "facts", all wrong. Interesting, I'd never explicitly made those comparisons. |
Near miss on Met
On 28/06/2020 10:03, Recliner wrote:
Peter Able wrote: On 27/06/2020 21:33, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 20:27, Recliner wrote: Peter Able wrote: On 26/06/2020 12:18, wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994? Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/ Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0 37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected. Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km. PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!) Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the LU network. I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London. Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham to Baker Street. The same comparison applies. As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So Chesham wins the meander case, too. As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74 minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes - plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the Chesham shuttle? Old "facts", all wrong. Interesting, I'd never explicitly made those comparisons. Who was it who said, "question everything but the legitimacy of your own birth" ? Not a bad life-guide, although it invites the opprobrium of the ignorant. ( QED impedance! ) |
Near miss on Met
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 10:03:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote: Trolleybus wrote: On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail. Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V? They also avoided touching it! I agree that it looks like HSE theatre but the carpet would be handy if you dropped a tool, I suppose. |
Near miss on Met
On 27/06/2020 11:03, Recliner wrote:
Trolleybus wrote: On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail. Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V? A rubber-based mat could look like old carpet. PA |
Near miss on Met
On 26/06/2020 12:23, Recliner wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100 Peter Able wrote: On 25/06/2020 17:40, Guy Gorton wrote: On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Guy Gorton wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:43:25 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Don't know if this has already been posted: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unched-commute r -train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed from that section of line now? A lot of interesting history of the line at http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/ I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually Chesham. Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from electric to steam at Rickmansworth). Guy Gorton Which was well before the present majority were born ! I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR. IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. Yes. And, oddly enough, it's still the datum point for the whole LU network. Hardly odd, just lateral thinking that saved a lot of money. PA |
Near miss on Met
In article , Trolleybus
writes It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail tracks, with steam and dripping water all around? I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail. Last time I watched them do that at Steam on the Met (some years ago) they had a shaped piece of plastic with a handle that they could put over the negative rail (don't recall if it reached the positive) to protect themselves. -- Clive D.W. Feather |
Near miss on Met
In article , Peter
Able writes IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and that only closed in 94. That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was wrong ! As already discussed, it depends on what you count as "Central London". My instinct is to use the Circle Line as the point to measure to. On that basis (all numbers rounded): Brill: 81 km Verney Jn: 80 km Quainton Rd: 70 km Aylesbury: 60 km Chesham: 42 km Amersham: 38 km Ongar: 37 km Windsor & Eton Central: 35 km Epping: 27 km Uxbridge via Acton: 27 km Uxbridge: 26 km Watford Jn: 26 km Watford Market via Finchley: 26 km Upminster: 24 km Heathrow: 23 km Bushey Heath via Finchley: 20 km Ealing Broadway: 20 km High Barnet: 16 km Edgware via Finchley: 16 km Edgware via Golders Green: 14 km Morden: 14 km Mill Hill East: 11 km -- Clive D.W. Feather |
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