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First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
From
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-under-london-park-spcxnw65j Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project. Climate campaigners protesting against the construction of the multibillion-pound railway line spent months digging 100ft of passages and chambers 15ft below Euston Square Gardens in north London. They moved dirt from the two main tunnels, codenamed Crystal and Kelvin, to the surface with buckets and hid it in the walls of their makeshift wooden fort. The entrance is concealed from public view by the planks and tarpaulin that form the main structure of the camp. HS2 officials learnt about the tunnels early this morning after securing temporary legal possession of the site from the landowners and sending in about 100 bailiffs to evict dozens of activists living in treetops, tunnels and the main compound. A large number of activists were removed around 4.30am, prompting about eight people to retreat underground with food, sleeping mats, battery packs and juggling balls. The group sealed the entrance and vowed to continue digging in an attempt to delay development as much as possible. The group was led by the veteran activist Swampy, real name Daniel Hooper, who was described by campaigners as a “master digger”. Others fled to four tree houses, which they move between using zip lines. However, most had been removed by bailiffs by about 2pm. Some who were caught on the ground were dragged off the site. Camden council, the former landowner, initially suggested it was not responsible for failing to spot the tunnels, saying that ownership of the site had been taken over by Network Rail. However, after Network Rail said it was not responsible for managing the site, the council admitted it had not noticed the digging during assessments of the camp. A Camden Council spokesman said: “We were not aware these tunnels were being built. Clearly the protesters have a responsibility themselves not to act in ways which could endanger their lives.” An HS2 spokeswoman said: “To ensure HS2 is able to deliver its major benefits to the UK on time, certain works must take place at designated times. HS2 has taken legal temporary possession of Euston Square Gardens East in order to progress with works necessary for the construction of the new Euston station. “These protests are a danger to the safety of the protestors, our staff and the general public, and put unnecessary strain on the emergency services during a pandemic. The protesters are currently trespassing on land that is legally possessed by HS2.” A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “We have only been involved today in order to prevent breach of peace. Any questions regarding the tunnels would need to be directed to the landowner and security firm. “Six arrests have been made at the site of a protest in Euston Square Gardens. One man was arrested for breach of the peace and a short time later was de-arrested and released. “A woman was arrested under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act. One man was arrested under the Public Order Act, while a further three men were arrested under the Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020. A police presence remains at the site to prevent further potential breaches of the peace and to uphold Covid legislation.” HS2 Rebellion, an alliance of activists who made the camp, spent months burrowing “in secret” under the park. “It’s not just one straight shaft down there, it’s like an ant nest with lots of different routes,” one activist who dug 20ft of the tunnel said. “The aim is to make it very complicated to delay the development as much as possible. They are still digging now.” The activists set up a Tree Protection Camp in the park in September after warning that Euston Square Gardens would be replaced with a temporary taxi rank before being sold off to developers. “It will take them a week to get people down and out of the tunnels. The guys in the trees are supplied with ‘squirrel food’ – canned food and nuts – so they can stay up there for ages.” The alliance of climate campaigners said that the tunnellers had worked “around the clock” to create the tunnel network, which is codenamed Calvin, and were prepared to occupy it “for as long as it takes to stop HS2”. A spokesman said: “They believe they can hold out in the tunnel for several weeks and hope in this time that a court will rule against HS2 for breaking the law by attempting an eviction without a court order and during the national coronavirus lockdown.” … continues |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Recliner wrote:
From https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-under-london-park-spcxnw65j Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project. Climate campaigners protesting against the construction of the multibillion-pound railway line spent months digging 100ft of passages and chambers 15ft below Euston Square Gardens in north London. They moved dirt from the two main tunnels, codenamed Crystal and Kelvin, to the surface with buckets and hid it in the walls of their makeshift wooden fort. The entrance is concealed from public view by the planks and tarpaulin that form the main structure of the camp. HS2 officials learnt about the tunnels early this morning after securing temporary legal possession of the site from the landowners and sending in about 100 bailiffs to evict dozens of activists living in treetops, tunnels and the main compound. A large number of activists were removed around 4.30am, prompting about eight people to retreat underground with food, sleeping mats, battery packs and juggling balls. The group sealed the entrance and vowed to continue digging in an attempt to delay development as much as possible. The group was led by the veteran activist Swampy, real name Daniel Hooper, who was described by campaigners as a “master digger”. Others fled to four tree houses, which they move between using zip lines. However, most had been removed by bailiffs by about 2pm. Some who were caught on the ground were dragged off the site. Camden council, the former landowner, initially suggested it was not responsible for failing to spot the tunnels, saying that ownership of the site had been taken over by Network Rail. However, after Network Rail said it was not responsible for managing the site, the council admitted it had not noticed the digging during assessments of the camp. A Camden Council spokesman said: “We were not aware these tunnels were being built. Clearly the protesters have a responsibility themselves not to act in ways which could endanger their lives.” An HS2 spokeswoman said: “To ensure HS2 is able to deliver its major benefits to the UK on time, certain works must take place at designated times. HS2 has taken legal temporary possession of Euston Square Gardens East in order to progress with works necessary for the construction of the new Euston station. “These protests are a danger to the safety of the protestors, our staff and the general public, and put unnecessary strain on the emergency services during a pandemic. The protesters are currently trespassing on land that is legally possessed by HS2.” A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “We have only been involved today in order to prevent breach of peace. Any questions regarding the tunnels would need to be directed to the landowner and security firm. “Six arrests have been made at the site of a protest in Euston Square Gardens. One man was arrested for breach of the peace and a short time later was de-arrested and released. “A woman was arrested under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act. One man was arrested under the Public Order Act, while a further three men were arrested under the Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020. A police presence remains at the site to prevent further potential breaches of the peace and to uphold Covid legislation.” HS2 Rebellion, an alliance of activists who made the camp, spent months burrowing “in secret” under the park. “It’s not just one straight shaft down there, it’s like an ant nest with lots of different routes,” one activist who dug 20ft of the tunnel said. “The aim is to make it very complicated to delay the development as much as possible. They are still digging now.” The activists set up a Tree Protection Camp in the park in September after warning that Euston Square Gardens would be replaced with a temporary taxi rank before being sold off to developers. “It will take them a week to get people down and out of the tunnels. The guys in the trees are supplied with ‘squirrel food’ – canned food and nuts – so they can stay up there for ages.” The alliance of climate campaigners said that the tunnellers had worked “around the clock” to create the tunnel network, which is codenamed Calvin, and were prepared to occupy it “for as long as it takes to stop HS2”. A spokesman said: “They believe they can hold out in the tunnel for several weeks and hope in this time that a court will rule against HS2 for breaking the law by attempting an eviction without a court order and during the national coronavirus lockdown.” … continues One of these may be useful. http://rodenator.eu GH |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: From https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ft-tunnel-unde r-london-park-spcxnw65j Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project. Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: From https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ft-tunnel-unde r-london-park-spcxnw65j Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project. Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think they just did it to attract attention. They won't have any effect on HS2 construction, but they figured that they'd attract more journalists and spectators to a site in central London than to a treehouse deep in the countryside. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:35:04 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: From https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...ft-tunnel-unde r-london-park-spcxnw65j Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project. Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think they just did it to attract attention. They won't have any effect on HS2 construction, but they figured that they'd attract more journalists and spectators to a site in central London than to a treehouse deep in the countryside. Yes, you're probably right. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 28/01/2021 11:26, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? It's all about self-publicity. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 28/01/2021 11:26, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? It's all about self-publicity. They interviewed a protester on the radio and he made some fairly valid points about woodland and reducing travel requirements but blew it all by saying we already had a railway between London and Birmingham so we didn’t need another one. Sam -- The entity formerly known as Spit the dummy to reply |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 28/01/2021 11:26, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? It's all about self-publicity. Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 29/01/2021 09:23, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 28/01/2021 11:26, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? It's all about self-publicity. Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 29/01/2021 09:23, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000 Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the rebelling against mummy and daddy stage. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 29/01/2021 09:23, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000 Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the rebelling against mummy and daddy stage. Indeed so. For example: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecd acf I think this bunch are the usual Extinction Rebellion crowd, who are essentially anti-capitalist. They'll protest against anything that they see as a manifestation of Big Business. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 29/01/2021 09:23, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000 Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the rebelling against mummy and daddy stage. Indeed so. For example: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...hail-from-off- grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecd acf Paywall unfortunately. I think this bunch are the usual Extinction Rebellion crowd, who are essentially anti-capitalist. They'll protest against anything that they see as a manifestation of Big Business. Indeed. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Indeed so. For example: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecd acf Paywall unfortunately. Provided you paste the whole URL including the word "shareToken" and the code following it, it should bypass the paywall for a week or so. Sometimes the system has a glitch, in which case try again in an hour or so. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Indeed so. For example: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecd acf Paywall unfortunately. Provided you paste the whole URL including the word "shareToken" and the code following it, it should bypass the paywall for a week or so. Sometimes the system has a glitch, in which case try again in an hour or so. It runs in the family: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/swampys-teenage-son-rory-occupying-hs2-protest-tunnels-near-euston-station-with-his-dad-pw3809bdr?shareToken=e96f30dda9fecf672246c48b721c7 b36 |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 29/01/2021 09:23, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 28/01/2021 11:26, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:49:46 on Thu, 28 Jan 2021, remarked: Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s. I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the entire project being cancelled. They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf? It's all about self-publicity. Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road holding some placards for a morning. But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-create-trouble-for-wildlife-n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17c 4be Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off its wildlife. The HS2 Rebellion camp at Denham Country Park, on the western edge of London, is on the bank of the River Colne. The surrounding nature reserve is home to endangered water voles and rich in biodiversity. However, river quality tests downstream have had their worst results since the camp expanded last summer. Park volunteers believe the river was polluted by activists washing their clothes with detergents, or themselves with soap and shampoo, and chemical run-off from dumped pallets used to build camp structures. Water voles, the fastest declining mammal in Britain, are one of the species that protesters want to protect. But volunteers in the park say camp fires near their burrow scared off the voles. Mark Swaby, fishery manager at the country park, said: “There was a water vole burrow. When the protesters arrived, tents were put up and fires were lit, one of which was right above the water vole burrow. Needless to say the water voles moved away. Then in November they were walking around asking walkers if they had seen any water voles.” While HS2 Rebellion’s website says activists established the camp to “halt work, monitor and report wildlife crimes and bear witness to HS2’s ecocide of the priority habitat wet woodland”, park volunteers believe the camp has done little to prevent work on the high-speed line — but a lot to damage wildlife. The camp made headlines in December when the veteran eco-warrior Daniel Hooper, 47, known as Swampy, was evicted from a bamboo tower built over the river. River quality sample tests at a site downstream from the camp typically find thousands of small invertebrates, such as freshwater shrimp and mayflies. However, testing in September, when the camp was full, detected no flies, suggesting they had been killed off by chemicals. A second test was done two days later and still found nothing. The latest test in November, when the camp population had shrunk, found a small number of flies but still fell below the trigger point that suggests a pollution event. The test samples were taken from a shallow area of a ford below the protesters’ camp but upstream from the HS2 compound. Because pollution rarely travels upstream, and seemed confined to the part of the river near the camp, volunteers are convinced that it was caused by protesters rather than HS2. Eddie Edwards, a local river monitor for the Riverfly Partnership, an umbrella organisation to protect rivers’ water quality that did the tests, was one of the team that took the samples in September and November. He said they had been “horrified” by the results. Asked if he thought the protest camp was responsible, he said: “Much as I hate to say it, yes.” |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:44:31 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...-for-wildlife- n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17 c4be Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off its wildlife. I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:44:31 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: Graeme Wall wrote: But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't know, or care, what they were. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...-for-wildlife- n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17c 4be Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off its wildlife. I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more often than damage to the land actually needed for the railway itself. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. GH |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
In message , at 11:19:46 on Mon, 8 Feb
2021, Marland remarked: wrote: On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. The Great Central Victoria Station in Nottingham (1900-1967) is a classic example of that. Gaining more irony every time people suggest reopening its Beeching closure much-subsequently-built-upon route as an alternative to HS2. -- Roland Perry |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT
Marland wrote: wrote: I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2 and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, plus it would have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
wrote:
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT Marland wrote: wrote: I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2 and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for more freights on the slow lines. plus it would have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes. No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:24:29 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: wrote: There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2 and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for more freights on the slow lines. Sure, if they get removed. I doubt they will. Do you think the service on the Central line will be cut back once crossrail opens? plus it would have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes. No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. ********. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible". |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
|
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Recliner wrote:
wrote: On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT Marland wrote: wrote: I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2 and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for more freights on the slow lines. plus it would have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes. No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. Genuine question: is there hard evidence for the oft quoted “the WCML is full” or is this based on extrapolating previous growth with an optimistic ever upwards line of the graph? Such predictions, in whatever industry, often fail to come to pass. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 08/02/2021 17:51, Tweed wrote:
Recliner wrote: wrote: On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT Marland wrote: wrote: I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often admire on various TV programmes. There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2 and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for more freights on the slow lines. plus it would have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes. No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. Genuine question: is there hard evidence for the oft quoted “the WCML is full” or is this based on extrapolating previous growth with an optimistic ever upwards line of the graph? Such predictions, in whatever industry, often fail to come to pass. See PUG 2 -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Marland wrote:
wrote: On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. You might be right about minor- and branch-lines, but the major main lines must have made a lot of money. Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids in. -- Jeremy Double |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
Jeremy Double wrote:
Marland wrote: wrote: On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC) Recliner wrote: wrote: I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems to be very much a "**** you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC. The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage — why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades to come. Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place? Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they caused or the financial ruin both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses and homes with little or no compensation. You might be right about minor- and branch-lines, but the major main lines must have made a lot of money. Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids in. Similarly the original main lines serving the obvious major traffic flows were very profitable, which led to railway mania, which caused many marginal or basket case lines to be built. Essentially, main lines built by about 1860 were very profitable, but most later ones weren't, or not for long. The GCR was notoriously unprofitable from the beginning, as it was an expensive way of duplicating the Midland Railway. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 17:36:29 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/02/2021 17:27, wrote: No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. ********. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible". And what do you do where it isn't possible? Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway that will probably makde zero difference to freight times. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 21:44:54 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Jeremy Double wrote: Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids in. Similarly the original main lines serving the obvious major traffic flows were very profitable, which led to railway mania, which caused many marginal or basket case lines to be built. Essentially, main lines built by about 1860 were very profitable, but most later ones weren't, or not for long. The GCR was notoriously unprofitable from the beginning, as it was an expensive way of duplicating the Midland Railway. Though arguably a faster and more direct route, until it got past nottingham anyway. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 09/02/2021 08:28, wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 17:36:29 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 08/02/2021 17:27, wrote: No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas. ********. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible". And what do you do where it isn't possible? Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway that will probably makde zero difference to freight times. So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/02/2021 08:28, wrote: Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway that will probably makde zero difference to freight times. So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of taxpayers money do you? I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or less given the **** stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 09/02/2021 10:11, wrote:
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/02/2021 08:28, wrote: Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway that will probably makde zero difference to freight times. So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of taxpayers money do you? It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at all. I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or less given the **** stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria. Still in denial Neil? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
In message , at 10:11:01 on Tue, 9 Feb
2021, remarked: On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/02/2021 08:28, wrote: Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway that will probably makde zero difference to freight times. So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands. and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains HS2 isn't for freight trains. -- Roland Perry |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:12:16 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/02/2021 10:11, wrote: So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of taxpayers money do you? It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at all. And having more tracks won't make any difference to that? I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or less given the **** stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria. Still in denial Neil? Still coming up with non arguments Greem? |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:11:01 on Tue, 9 Feb 2021, remarked: So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands. Which ones? and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains HS2 isn't for freight trains. *sigh* |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
On 09/02/2021 11:29, wrote:
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:12:16 +0000 Graeme Wall wrote: On 09/02/2021 10:11, wrote: So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of taxpayers money do you? It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at all. And having more tracks won't make any difference to that? Not 300 yards of extra track in the countryside leading to more flat jucnction casuing even more congestion and delay I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or less given the **** stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria. Still in denial Neil? Still coming up with non arguments Greem? So still in denial, 100,000 deaths is just down to hysteria is it? NB I stopped worrying about idiots misspelling my name in kindergarten. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
In message , at 11:31:31 on Tue, 9 Feb
2021, remarked: On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:11:01 on Tue, 9 Feb 2021, remarked: So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job properly in the first place. So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands. Which ones? Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins. -- Roland Perry |
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