On 11/04/2021 09:49, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.

If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy� and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.

Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.


Digging the holes isn't the problem, it is supplying the electrons to go
down the cables and some method of getting the electrons from the hole
in the ground to the vehicle without causing a trip hazard and legal
bonanza.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall wrote:


If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy� and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.

Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.


Digging the holes isn't the problem, it is supplying the electrons to go
down the cables and some method of getting the electrons from the hole
in the ground to the vehicle without causing a trip hazard and legal
bonanza.



The power supply problem I grant you is yet to be solved but it will be, at
least to keep those who are affluent enough to run personal transport the
size of a car doing so , ie make it expensive.
The rest may just end up in the situation we once had up the 1960’s when
car ownership was a dream for many and they had to use other means of
getting around.
To some extent a future non car owner will be better off than their
grandparents and have the choice of using an electric scooter or an
electrically assisted bicycle for many journeys whose power demand on the
grid will be far less and buy in transport for when they need a bigger
vehicle or make a longer journey wether that is a hire car or a taxi like
operation.

Even turning many 2 car households into a one car plus scooters and bikes
will make quite a distance.
Many younger people were already going this way anyway, car ownership is no
longer seen as a status point reached in life like it was for our
generation and assaulted by high accommodation costs plus the need if
sensible to start saving for a pension leaves little to run a car ,not
having one is no longer something to feel ashamed about ,the status symbol
object is the latest smartphone they can order an Uber on.

As for they trip hazard problem the most basic solution would be conduits
like slot drains that been used since victorian times to take water from
building downpipes to the gutter, theirs were cast Iron and many are still
in place but modern versions in other materials are available.
You then lay your cable in that .

This is one of the old style ones in Truro from the closed Hotel to the
gutter, there are thousands still in use around the country and people cope
with them.


Now you won’t what any old joe digging up the pavement as standards would
have to be maintained
so like dropped pavements for drives are now the local authorities would
either do the work or have an approved contractor the resident has to pay
for.

GH

Marland wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:


As for they trip hazard problem the most basic solution would be conduits
like slot drains that been used since victorian times to take water from
building downpipes to the gutter, theirs were cast Iron and many are still
in place but modern versions in other materials are available.
You then lay your cable in that .

This is one of the old style ones in Truro from the closed Hotel to the
gutter, there are thousands still in use around the country and people cope
with them.


Whoops forgot the link





GH

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 11/04/2021 09:49, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:36:52 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where
the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.

If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy� and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.

Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.


Digging the holes isn't the problem, it is supplying the electrons to go
down the cables and some method of getting the electrons from the hole
in the ground to the vehicle without causing a trip hazard and legal
bonanza.



Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.

MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?



That could, I suppose, be a problem, but I'm not aware of it happening yet.



Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

https://www.fleetpoint.org/electric-vehicles-2/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables/

Recliner wrote:
Tweed wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Often not enough spaces for all residents then you get the complication
if someone else parks in your space so you have park elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking house-specific numbered spaces, but just marked
car-length spaces with a charging point each.



I still want to know what is to be done about cable theft. Presumably
charger cables have some fairly thick copper conductors. I could see
someone with insulated bolt cutters chopping their way down a street of
plugged in cars in the dead of night. Does an alarm go off if the cable is
chopped?

https://www.fleetpoint.org/electric-vehicles-2/thieves-making-200-a-time-stealing-car-charging-cables/



That's talking about whole cables being stolen (presumably to be re-sold
whole) by being unplugged (the're supposed to be locked in to both vehicle
and charger); one of the suggested solutions is a padlock around the cable,
which wouldn't prevent the theft-by-cutting suggested in this thread.


Anna Noyd-Dryver