Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems a bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through services to
all their extremities.
Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and back
towards the City?
Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that might be worth
doing even if the above two are hopeless non-starters?
--
gordon
--
gordon

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Sharon & Gordon Thomson" wrote in
message ...
Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from
Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems a
bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through services
to
all their extremities.

It would be possible but I doubt enough people use Chesham off-peak to make
it worthwhile.

Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and back
towards the City?

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that might be
worth
doing even if the above two are hopeless non-starters?

I believe LU are considering changing the sub-surface lines. Trains would go
Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Liverpool Street - South Kensington - Edgware
Road where it would reverse and head back the other way. This would have the
advantage of giving Circle trains somewhere to make up any time they have
lost.

Peter Smyth

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

snip
I believe LU are considering changing the sub-surface lines. Trains would
go
Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Liverpool Street - South Kensington - Edgware
Road where it would reverse and head back the other way. This would have
the
advantage of giving Circle trains somewhere to make up any time they have
lost.


With the District Line covering the rest of the Hammersmith and City would
this mean the end of either the Hamersmith and City or the Circle line. i.e.
is whats proposed a merging of the 2 lines?

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Sharon & Gordon Thomson" wrote in
message ...
Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from
Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems a
bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through
services
to
all their extremities.

It would be possible but I doubt enough people use Chesham off-peak to
make
it worthwhile.

Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault
to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and back
towards the City?

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to
make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

So how does this work now at the Heathrow end of the Picc or, come to that,
on the Circle line?

--
Brian
"Chuff! Chuff! Poot! Poot! A model railway exhibition can do that to a
person"

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Brian Watson" wrote in message
...

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Sharon & Gordon Thomson" wrote in
message ...
Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from
Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a
branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems
a
bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through
services
to
all their extremities.

It would be possible but I doubt enough people use Chesham off-peak to
make
it worthwhile.

Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault
to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and
back
towards the City?

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to
make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

So how does this work now at the Heathrow end of the Picc

Badly

or, come to that,
on the Circle line?

Very badly.

Which is why "layover" time is built in at Heathrow T12&3 and Aldgate
respectively.

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Sharon & Gordon Thomson" wrote in
message ...
Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from
Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems a
bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through services
to
all their extremities.
Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and back
towards the City?
Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that might be
worth
doing even if the above two are hopeless non-starters?
--
gordon
--
gordon




In fact many Hainault trains continue to Woodford via Grange Hill etc, where
they reverse and go back the same way. This gives layover time to make up
late running, and a direct through service to central London from all
stations.

Andrew

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...

"Brian Watson" wrote in message
...

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to
make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

So how does this work now at the Heathrow end of the Picc

Badly

or, come to that,
on the Circle line?

Very badly.

Which is why "layover" time is built in at Heathrow T12&3 and Aldgate
respectively.

OK. Thanks for that.

--
Brian
"Chuff! Chuff! Poot! Poot! A model railway exhibition can do that to a
person"

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In fact many Hainault trains continue to Woodford where
they reverse and go back the same way.

I'm still left wondering whether they couldn't have clockwise and
anticlockwise journeys connecting together all the stations on the loop and
also allowing people using stations around the mid-section of the loop and
travelling from/to beyond the loop to use the first train regardless of
which direction it goes round the loop. Would this not essentially amount to
an improved frequency for no extra resource? There could still be a few
minutes intermediate stand time at Woodford or wherever for recovery.
--
gordon

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

On Sat, 29 May 2004, Sharon & Gordon Thomson wrote:

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that might be
worth doing even if the above two are hopeless non-starters?

How about terminating the Metropolitan line at Whitechapel instead of
Aldgate? I believe that used to be done, and it would be more useful, i
think: anyone who uses the Met to go to Aldgate can get of at Aldgate
East, and it would drastically improve the connection from east London to
the northern half of the circle (at present, the District line provides a
good service to the southern half, but the H&C is seriously crappy). There
are probably very good reasons why this can't be done, though.

tom

--
Oh, well of course *everything* looks bad if you remember it

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2004, Sharon & Gordon Thomson wrote:

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that
might be worth doing even if the above two are hopeless
non-starters?

How about terminating the Metropolitan line at Whitechapel instead
of Aldgate? I believe that used to be done, and it would be more
useful, i think: anyone who uses the Met to go to Aldgate can get
of at Aldgate East, and it would drastically improve the connection
from east London to the northern half of the circle (at present,
the District line provides a good service to the southern half, but
the H&C is seriously crappy). There are probably very good reasons
why this can't be done, though.

Like the fact that, with only two tracks between Aldgate East and
Whitechapel, and a flat junction at Aldgate East, you couldn't fit in
the H&C, District and Met services and expect to get a reliable service.
This is one reason why the H&C is "seriously crappy", as it has to
contend with at least 4 flat junctions between Paddington and Aldgate
East.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

In message , Brian Watson
writes

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to
make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

So how does this work now at the Heathrow end of the Picc or, come to that,
on the Circle line?

Heathrow 123 is regarded as the terminus. Trains are booked for about a
7-8 minute stand there.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

Would it be totally impractical for all or most Met journeys to/from
Chesham
to run as through services to Baker Street as opposed to mainly a branch
shuttle with the odd peak-time run to Aldgate or wherever. Just seems a
bit
messy compared to most other lines which tend to provide through services
to
all their extremities.

It would be possible but I doubt enough people use Chesham off-peak to make
it worthwhile.

But equally anyone from Amersham would surely use Chiltern. If anyone
used Chesham at all, a better off-peak pattern might be making the LU
Fast trains Cheshams.

Also would it not be feasible for Central Line trains serving Hainault to
run alternately clockwise/anticlockwise round the Hainault loop and back
towards the City?

As there would be no terminus there would be nowhere for the trains to make
up any time and this would decrease reliability.

What might be a better idea would be to make all trains via Newbury
Park terminate at Hainault and send a few trains an hour to Hainault
via Woodford. This might finally do something about the abysmal
ridership at Roding Valley.

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that might be
worth
doing even if the above two are hopeless non-starters?

I believe LU are considering changing the sub-surface lines. Trains would go
Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Liverpool Street - South Kensington - Edgware
Road where it would reverse and head back the other way. This would have the
advantage of giving Circle trains somewhere to make up any time they have
lost.

This is a stupid idea. It would just end up sharing terminal platforms
with the Edgware Rd District, so the amount of recovery time available
would be necessarily tiny. The route would effectively become
Hammersmith to Hammersmith with a reversing move in the middle. On
time performance towards Hammersmith would be appalling, unless an
extra wait were added at Aldgate, which rather defeats the point of
the whole exercise.

A better plan might be to replace the Circle with a Wimbledon -
Wimbledon Loop, or alternatively to run Hammersmith - Aldgate -
Wimbledon and Wimbledon - Edgware Rd - Whitechapel.

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004, Sharon & Gordon Thomson wrote:

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that
might be worth doing even if the above two are hopeless
non-starters?

How about terminating the Metropolitan line at Whitechapel instead
of Aldgate?

Like the fact that, with only two tracks between Aldgate East and
Whitechapel, and a flat junction at Aldgate East, you couldn't fit in
the H&C, District and Met services and expect to get a reliable service.
This is one reason why the H&C is "seriously crappy", as it has to
contend with at least 4 flat junctions between Paddington and Aldgate
East.

Dang those flat junctions!

So, how did it work when the Met _did_ go to Whitechapel? Or am i
imagining that? Did (what is now) the H&C terminate at Aldgate or
something?

tom

--
Basically, at any given time, most people in the world are wasting time.

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 May 2004, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004, Sharon & Gordon Thomson wrote:

Are there any changes to traditional route options on LU that
might be worth doing even if the above two are hopeless
non-starters?

How about terminating the Metropolitan line at Whitechapel instead
of Aldgate?

Like the fact that, with only two tracks between Aldgate East and
Whitechapel, and a flat junction at Aldgate East, you couldn't fit in
the H&C, District and Met services and expect to get a reliable service.
This is one reason why the H&C is "seriously crappy", as it has to
contend with at least 4 flat junctions between Paddington and Aldgate
East.

Dang those flat junctions!

So, how did it work when the Met _did_ go to Whitechapel? Or am i
imagining that? Did (what is now) the H&C terminate at Aldgate or
something?

The only time the Metropolitan line went to Whitechapel was when the
Hammersmith & City was still part of the Met. Even then it was still the
Hammersmith trains that went to Whitechapel.

Peter Smyth

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

"James" wrote in message
om...

I believe LU are considering changing the sub-surface lines. Trains
would go
Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Liverpool Street - South Kensington -
Edgware
Road where it would reverse and head back the other way. This would have
the
advantage of giving Circle trains somewhere to make up any time they
have
lost.

This is a stupid idea. It would just end up sharing terminal platforms
with the Edgware Rd District, so the amount of recovery time available
would be necessarily tiny. The route would effectively become
Hammersmith to Hammersmith with a reversing move in the middle. On
time performance towards Hammersmith would be appalling, unless an
extra wait were added at Aldgate, which rather defeats the point of
the whole exercise.

A better plan might be to replace the Circle with a Wimbledon -
Wimbledon Loop, or alternatively to run Hammersmith - Aldgate -
Wimbledon and Wimbledon - Edgware Rd - Whitechapel.

The version I've heard - admittedly only within this group - was that the
Circle, H&C and Wimbleware lines would be replaced by two services:

1) Wimbledon-Earl's Court-Edgware Road-Liverpool Street-Barking
2) Hammersmith-Edgware Road-Liverpool Steet-Victoria-Edgware Road

Jonn

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

A better plan might be to replace the Circle with a Wimbledon -
Wimbledon Loop, or alternatively to run Hammersmith - Aldgate -
Wimbledon and Wimbledon - Edgware Rd - Whitechapel.

The version I've heard - admittedly only within this group - was that the
Circle, H&C and Wimbleware lines would be replaced by two services:

1) Wimbledon-Earl's Court-Edgware Road-Liverpool Street-Barking
2) Hammersmith-Edgware Road-Liverpool Steet-Victoria-Edgware Road

Jonn

Have a look he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm

I think this is as close to the horse's mouth as we are likely to get!

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

In article ,
(dan) wrote:

A better plan might be to replace the Circle with a Wimbledon -
Wimbledon Loop, or alternatively to run Hammersmith - Aldgate -
Wimbledon and Wimbledon - Edgware Rd - Whitechapel.

The version I've heard - admittedly only within this group - was that
the Circle, H&C and Wimbleware lines would be replaced by two
services:

1) Wimbledon-Earl's Court-Edgware Road-Liverpool Street-Barking
2) Hammersmith-Edgware Road-Liverpool Steet-Victoria-Edgware Road

Jonn

Have a look he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm

I think this is as close to the horse's mouth as we are likely to get!

Sorry to come along rather late but where does the handing over of the
District's Richmond branch to Crossrail come into this?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Scope for Changing LU Route Linkings
 

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(dan) wrote:
Have a look he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm

I think this is as close to the horse's mouth as we are likely to
get!

Sorry to come along rather late but where does the handing over of
the District's Richmond branch to Crossrail come into this?

The intention is that the Upminster to Richmond services will just be
shared out between Ealing Broadway and Wimbledon. Actually I think
that's Crossrail's proposal; I don't know if LU have expressed a view.

The rumour is that we shall find out on Tuesday (20 July) whether
Crossrail, or this bit of it, will actually happen.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)