London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service areas, of which
we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or junction
11 (M3). As there is another bout of works around J11 at the moment, has
anyone heard if they plan to recitify the deficiency at the same time ? Or,
for that matter, ever?


Bob Martin
--
; ROT13

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service areas, of
which
we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or junction
11 (M3). As there is another bout of works around J11 at the moment, has
anyone heard if they plan to recitify the deficiency at the same time ?
Or,
for that matter, ever?

Given that the south-west quarter of the M25 is the most intensively used,
it's surprising that it wasn't the first to get a service area. It's also
surprising that there aren't signs at each junction on the M25 to the
nearest off-motorway services where you could at least get a cup of coffee
and a Mars Bar, and go to the loo.

There seems to have been a change in the design of motorway service stations
in recent years. Originally (with the exception of Scratchwood at the
southern end of the M1) two service stations have always been built - one
serving each direction with no vehicle link between the two. Now (M40
services, M25 services) one service station is built which is reached by
coming right off the motorway at a junction - this is probably more
efficient as it avoids duplication and allows the services to be used by
non-motorway traffic too. I wonder why this wasn't done from the start.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

It's also surprising that there aren't signs at each junction on the M25
to the
nearest off-motorway services where you could at least get a cup of coffee
and a Mars Bar, and go to the loo.

Of course there's no reason this concept would only need to be confined to
the M25 - at almost all US Interstate exits there is signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach the exit,
and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after all, its
just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it would ever happen.

Undoubtedly, the existing service areas operators would go out of their way
to lobby for killing the proposal before it started, even if it were
intended only to be used in areas where there are no service area: their
underlying fear would be it could lead to a groundswell of support for
widening the concept to areas where it could cause competition with what
they regard as their god (or, at least, Department for Transport -- DfT)
given right to hugely over-charge consumers at existing service areas.

So I doubt that DfT, even working to a Government that allegedly isn't in
the back pockets of "big business", would have the guts to introduce the
concept in the face of such probable opposition. Indeed, it could well be
that such an obvious idea has already been considered and rejected for this
reason, I suppose!

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Bob Martin
writes

IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service areas, of which
we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or junction
11 (M3).

No. 4 was originally intended to be at Iver, a little north of junction
15 - the plan was abandoned around 1990 due to M25 widening.

As there is another bout of works around J11 at the moment, has
anyone heard if they plan to recitify the deficiency at the same time ? Or,
for that matter, ever?

Cobham (between jcts 9 and 10) was the subject of a recent public
enquiry looking into a number of new motorway service areas west of
London. However, although the enquiry has finished, I last heard that it
was not due to report until 2005 and was waiting, amongst other things,
for traffic projections post Heathrow T5.

--
Paul Terry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or
junction
11 (M3).

Given that the south-west quarter of the M25 is the most intensively used,
it's surprising that it wasn't the first to get a service area. It's also
surprising that there aren't signs at each junction on the M25 to the
nearest off-motorway services where you could at least get a cup of coffee
and a Mars Bar, and go to the loo.

Good point - of course it couldn't work at J11 (motorway:motorway only), but
any obvious reason they couldn't do something like that for the A3 junction?

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , User23
writes

It's also
surprising that there aren't signs at each junction on the M25 to the
nearest off-motorway services where you could at least get a cup of coffee
and a Mars Bar, and go to the loo.

Good point - of course it couldn't work at J11 (motorway:motorway only), but
any obvious reason they couldn't do something like that for the A3 junction?

If you mean signs to the A3 Ripley services, the reason is likely to be
that you cannot easily get back to the M25 without a long deviation.

--
Paul Terry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

If you mean signs to the A3 Ripley services, the reason is likely to be
that you cannot easily get back to the M25 without a long deviation.

Surely other easy option for a "quick fix" at M25 J10 would be to route to
"local services" like Cobham, which has, amongst other things, a large
Sainsbury's, complete with Restaurant and Petrol Station, just off the A3?

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...

signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach the exit,
and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after all, its
just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it would ever happen.

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken? I
can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who should be on
the list as nearest.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to a place
that has shut down.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date. As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Dave

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In article , Dave Liney
writes

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date. As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Dave

When the M40 was first extended there were no service areas and signs
were provided across Oxon and Warks to local fuel stations with details
of their opening hours.
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Martin
writes

IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service areas, of
which
we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or
junction
11 (M3).

Cobham (between jcts 9 and 10) was the subject of a recent public
enquiry looking into a number of new motorway service areas west of
London. However, although the enquiry has finished, I last heard that it
was not due to report until 2005 and was waiting, amongst other things,
for traffic projections post Heathrow T5.

There certainly was a proposal for a service area at Downside (just south of
Cobham) three years or so ago but the usual NIMBYs hated the idea of the
employment that would be attracted to the area. Even in stockbroker Surrey,
some blue collar jobs are needed!

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Bob Martin
writes

If you mean signs to the A3 Ripley services, the reason is likely to be
that you cannot easily get back to the M25 without a long deviation.

Surely other easy option for a "quick fix" at M25 J10 would be to route to
"local services" like Cobham, which has, amongst other things, a large
Sainsbury's, complete with Restaurant and Petrol Station, just off the A3?

It would certainly be reasonably near, but it is not 24-hour opening and
I suspect that the locals might well raise planning objections.

I don't know what the official policy is for signs to off-motorway
services, but all those I can recall have been very close-by on major
roads, rather than on local side roads, and tend to point to service
areas that offer the full range of motorway-style facilities.

In the case of Cobham, I suspect it is likely that work will begin on
the official M25 service area there within less than a year, so I doubt
that any quick-fix will be applied, however viable it might be.

(Wasn't it John Major who thought that the answer to all transport
problems was a Cones Hotline and many more Motorway Service Stations,
doubtless with his much-loved caffs selling delicious peas?)

--
Paul Terry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Dave Liney" wrote in message
...

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...

signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach the
exit,
and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after all,
its
just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it would ever happen.

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken? I
can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who should be
on
the list as nearest.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to a
place
that has shut down.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date. As the price of
fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Dave




I agree it isn't a conspiracy :-) but it's already happened on A routes.
"Local services" signs are quite common followed by either a "not 24 hours"
or "24 hours".

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Paul Dicken
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

Cobham (between jcts 9 and 10) was the subject of a recent public
enquiry looking into a number of new motorway service areas west of
London. However, although the enquiry has finished, I last heard that
it was not due to report until 2005 and was waiting, amongst other
things, for traffic projections post Heathrow T5.

There certainly was a proposal for a service area at Downside (just south of
Cobham) three years or so ago

That's the one ... specifically, the site is New Barn Farm, Downside.

but the usual NIMBYs hated the idea of the employment that would be
attracted to the area.

They will have to wait to see the outcome of the enquiry ... it is a
Greenbelt site, which is yet another reason for the delay until 2005.

--
Paul Terry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:26:54 +0100, "JB"
wrote:

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

This never used to be the case for me, given how dreary they used to
be - however, I must say that I was impressed with the obviously
newly-built services at South Mimms yesterday - a bright, airy
building, spotlessly clean, lots of seats and a good range of
eateries. The railway would do well to look at[1] using the same kind
of design for their concourses.

[1] Manchester Piccadilly is in a similar style, and is very
impressive - only problem is the lack of seating.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

I'm not actually evincing a conspiracy theory, merely accepting the reality
that the words Bernard Woolley from (the written version of) "Yes, Minister"
are as true now as they were 20 years ago:

"Every Department acts for the powerful sectional interests with whom
they
have a permanent relationship"

Thus DfT is always going to be more swayed by the (likely) views of service
area operators, who will be known to them, than the motorists, who are an
amorphous mass.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken? I
can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who should be
on
the list as nearest.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to a
place
that has shut down.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date.

Well, if American cousins can manage this, it would be sad if the consensus
was that it was beyond the capabilities of the British :-(

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Dave Liney" wrote the following in:



"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...

signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach
the exit, and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after
all, its just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it
would ever happen.

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely
on conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time
taken? I can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels
about who should be on the list as nearest.

Not a particularly massive issue. Distance by road would seem a fairly
sensible way to decide it. I don't know why you even suggested distance
as the crow flies, because that would really have no relevance to the
motorist.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing
someone running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the
motorway to a place that has shut down.

This is hardly likely to be a massive task. I wouldn't have thought
these things change all that frequently.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most
non-motorway petrol stations aren't so opening time information
will have to put on the signs, and this would also have to be kept
up-to-date.

I've seen signs for non 24-hour service stations before. They just say
"non-24 hour".

As the price of fuel on motorway service announcement
signs is no longer displayed, presumably because of the effort
required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Surely the opening hours of a service station are more constant than
the price of fuel?

--
message by Robin May-Silk and his close friend, Robert Kilroy-Kotton
"GIVE IN! IT'S TIME TO GO!" - The NHS offers a high standard of care.

Would you take the office of relief?:
http://robinmay.fotopic.net/p4600200.html

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:26:54 +0100, "JB"
wrote:

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services
rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

This never used to be the case for me, given how dreary they used to
be - however, I must say that I was impressed with the obviously
newly-built services at South Mimms yesterday - a bright, airy
building, spotlessly clean, lots of seats and a good range of
eateries. The railway would do well to look at[1] using the same kind
of design for their concourses.

[1] Manchester Piccadilly is in a similar style, and is very
impressive - only problem is the lack of seating.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain



Actually I agree they used to be horrible (very occasionally I'll stumble
across an unreconstructed one). I still think they're expensive but I
realise the extra costs associated with running them.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most
non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on
the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date.

Well, if American cousins can manage this, it would be sad if the
consensus
was that it was beyond the capabilities of the British :-(



In my somewhat limited experience, the USA example is no different than
here. They tend not to have on freeway service areas and those signs you
talk about tend to lead you to the big chains, not the mom&pop everyone is
usually so proud of.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 at 17:36:35, Dave Liney wrote:

As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

They seem to manage in France.

Talking of which, why can't we have what they have in France and
Germany, where only every other service area has petrol and food, but
the intermediate ones have a place to park, with picnic tables and loos
and possibly/probably telephones and a local information board? I
expect they are inspected at least once a day - and the loos have become
vastly cleaner in recent years, the ones we visited this year barely
smelt at all which is unusual for French loos - but they must be
infinitely cheaper than the huge service areas. Okay, so they have
those, too - and some very nice ones, like the Aire du Baie de la Somme
near Abbeville - but you can buy a sandwich (French motorway sarnies are
far nicer than their British equivalents, but not as nice as
off-motorway ones, of course) and take it 20 km down the road to have a
picnic..... or just stop for a "drain, flush and refill" if that's all
you need.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 6 June 2004

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

Martin Underwood wrote:
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service
areas, of which we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett
Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or
junction 11 (M3). As there is another bout of works around J11 at
the moment, has anyone heard if they plan to recitify the
deficiency at the same time ? Or, for that matter, ever?

Given that the south-west quarter of the M25 is the most
intensively used, it's surprising that it wasn't the first to get a
service area. It's also surprising that there aren't signs at each
junction on the M25 to the nearest off-motorway services where you
could at least get a cup of coffee and a Mars Bar, and go to the
loo.

The idea of motorways is to take traffic away from ordinary roads, not
to inject additional traffic into villages which just happen to be close
to a motorway junction. Also, the M25 junctions are quite busy enough
without encouraging extra traffic leaving and entering the M25 at them.

There seems to have been a change in the design of motorway service
stations in recent years. Originally (with the exception of
Scratchwood at the southern end of the M1) two service stations
have always been built - one serving each direction with no vehicle
link between the two. Now (M40 services, M25 services) one service
station is built which is reached by coming right off the motorway
at a junction

This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

- this is probably more efficient as it avoids duplication and
allows the services to be used by non-motorway traffic too. I wonder
why this wasn't done from the start.

It adds traffic to the junction roundabout, possibly requiring a bigger
junction than would otherwise be necessary, and it adds journey time.
It also, in my experience, leads to lower standards in the service area,
perhaps because big does not necessarily mean better. Personally, I
would like to see more small service areas on the French pattern, not
all with full facilities, though they have the advantage of more land
being readily available.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

This is how one state (Virginia) manages their "Gas, Food, Lodging" signs:

http://www.virginiadot.org/infoservice/sign-default.asp

--
*****
*****The "return to" address embedded in this mail is wrong as an antispam
measure. Please address new mails or replies to
edwarddotharrison1atbtinternetdotcom replacing dot with a . and at
with an @*****
*****

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

Bob Martin:
[Interstates and similar roads in the US have] signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach
the exit, and as directions from the slip road.

The actual wording is "Gas - Food - Lodging", which wouldn't fly in the
UK for obvious reasons. In Ontario, Canada (where we also say "gas"),
they formerly used "Fuel - Food - Accommodations" but now conform to
the US style.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after all, its
just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it would ever happen.

I believe the system was introduced in the US in conjunction with highway
beautification laws that required roadside billboards to be removed.

Dave Liney:
I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken?

By road; it's meaningful and objective. But it's not actually just the
nearest places anyway. If there is a cluster of businesses around the
exit, there will be signs for all of them. You might see "food" followed
by a row of three or four fast food or restaurant names (or logos if
they're chain restaurants), and then a later sign will show Burger King
to the right; McDonald's, KFC, and Joe's Local Diner to the left.
Likewise for gas and lodging.

I can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who
should be on the list as nearest.

The arguments would be about whether the cutoff rule should be "within
1/2 mile" or "within 1 mile" or "within 1 mile, or nearest within
5 miles if there is nothing within 1 mile"; once a rule is legislated,
that should settle the issue.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to
a place that has shut down.

Yes, well, in *some* states they would agree with that. :-(

Also ... opening time information will have to put on the signs...

Not practical; people wouldn't have enough time to read them all. The
sign just means "there is a gas station", not "there is an open gas
station". They could show 24-hour or not 24-hour, but in my experience
even this is not usually done. If you need gas or food in the middle
of the night, it's your responsibility to find a place that's open.

None of this is meant as a suggestion for what should be done in the UK.
--
Mark Brader | "I noted with some interest that Fahrenheit was
Toronto | also used in the weather forecast, but there the
| gas marks were missing." -- Ivan A. Derzhanski

My text in this article is in the public domain.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Richard J.
writes
There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

Stansted on M11.
--
Roland Perry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"JB" wrote in message
...

Actually I agree they used to be horrible (very occasionally
I'll stumble across an unreconstructed one).

I don't agree! My favourite service station is the unreconstructed Medway on
the M2. I think it used to be called Farthing Corner. It should be listed,
because you can really feel the vision of the original motorway service
stations there. The architect clearly believed in the fahn fahn fahn off der
autobahn. The newer service stations see the motorway as a hotrrible source
of noise and fumes to be ignored at all cost.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Robin May" wrote in message
.4...

I've seen signs for non 24-hour service stations
before. They just say "non-24 hour".

There are many such signs on the A2 and A12.

Those signs are useless! I don't care whether the service station is 24-hour
or not, I just want to know if it's open now.

They should use venetian-blind signs that can switch between saying "Service
station" and saying nothing. (What are those venetian blind signs called?)

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In article , John Rowland
writes

They should use venetian-blind signs that can switch between saying "Service
station" and saying nothing. (What are those venetian blind signs called?)

Dynamic signage.
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Robin May" wrote in message
.4...

I've seen signs for non 24-hour service stations
before. They just say "non-24 hour".

There are many such signs on the A2 and A12.

Those signs are useless! I don't care whether the service station is
24-hour
or not, I just want to know if it's open now.

They should use venetian-blind signs that can switch between saying
"Service
station" and saying nothing. (What are those venetian blind signs called?)

Expensive...:-)
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change from jealous to sad to reply.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"JB" wrote in message
...

In my somewhat limited experience, the USA example is no different than
here. They tend not to have on freeway service areas and those signs you
talk about tend to lead you to the big chains, not the mom&pop everyone is
usually so proud of.

You often find a gas station and a fast food outlet adjacent to a freeway
exit, and a very tall sign advertising their presence, plus roadside
hoardings telling you that you can find Macdonalds at Junction 217, or
whatever, which is 18 miles ahead.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
...
Martin Underwood wrote:
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service
areas, of which we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett
Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or
junction 11 (M3). As there is another bout of works around J11 at
the moment, has anyone heard if they plan to recitify the
deficiency at the same time ? Or, for that matter, ever?

Given that the south-west quarter of the M25 is the most
intensively used, it's surprising that it wasn't the first to get a
service area. It's also surprising that there aren't signs at each
junction on the M25 to the nearest off-motorway services where you
could at least get a cup of coffee and a Mars Bar, and go to the
loo.

The idea of motorways is to take traffic away from ordinary roads, not
to inject additional traffic into villages which just happen to be close
to a motorway junction. Also, the M25 junctions are quite busy enough
without encouraging extra traffic leaving and entering the M25 at them.

Hence the need for another service station in the south west of the M25 to
prevent anyone who's dying for a pee leaving the motorway temporarily at one
of the junctions in search of services (eg a garage) in a nearby town.


There seems to have been a change in the design of motorway service
stations in recent years. Originally (with the exception of
Scratchwood at the southern end of the M1) two service stations
have always been built - one serving each direction with no vehicle
link between the two. Now (M40 services, M25 services) one service
station is built which is reached by coming right off the motorway
at a junction

This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

You may be right. I was thinking mainly of the M1 ones since those are the
ones I know best.

- this is probably more efficient as it avoids duplication and
allows the services to be used by non-motorway traffic too. I wonder
why this wasn't done from the start.

It adds traffic to the junction roundabout, possibly requiring a bigger
junction than would otherwise be necessary, and it adds journey time.
It also, in my experience, leads to lower standards in the service area,
perhaps because big does not necessarily mean better. Personally, I
would like to see more small service areas on the French pattern, not
all with full facilities, though they have the advantage of more land
being readily available.

There's always a disadvantage with every advantage. I tend to prefer the
two-services-on-the-motorway model to the one-service-off-the-motorway
because it takes less time to enter and leave. However it would be nice if
there was a road bridge linking the two to allow for U turns when you
realise you've gone the wrong way and if you discover that there's a traffic
jam ahead (so you can double back and take an alternative route). However
the latter is rather contentious: I get the impression that the police would
rather that traffic was trapped stationary on the motorway than being able
to "escape" and clog up roads that aren't designed to take the weight of
traffic.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Terry Harper
writes
You often find a gas station and a fast food outlet adjacent to a freeway
exit, and a very tall sign advertising their presence, plus roadside
hoardings telling you that you can find Macdonalds at Junction 217, or
whatever, which is 18 miles ahead.

Yes, I think what people are missing is that in effect these junctions
on the freeway have a dedicated truck-stop (very much equivalent to our
motorway services) built right next to it. All that differs from one to
the next is whether the fast food is Wendy, Burger King or Macdonalds.

Whereas the services *on* the freeway are more like a massive lay-by and
will have perhaps toilets, picnic area and a few vending machines.

In the UK there just isn't the space, or indeed the demand, to build the
truck-stop facilities. Or as some have hinted, the locals positively
don't want them.
--
Roland Perry

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 at 17:36:35, Dave Liney wrote:

As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

They seem to manage in France.

Talking of which, why can't we have what they have in France and
Germany, where only every other service area has petrol and food, but
the intermediate ones have a place to park, with picnic tables and loos
and possibly/probably telephones and a local information board?

There is a picnic area at Heston (M4) Eastbound.

There is also a current planning application to build 120 units of
affordable housing on it - which makes me think that not many people
picnic there.


Robin

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
...
This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

Isn't Scratchwood now "London Gateway"?

And if so, why did they change the name?

And why did they change Hilton Park (M6) to (can't remember name) and
back to Hilton Park again?


Robin

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

"Robin Cox" wrote in message
...

There is a picnic area at Heston (M4) Eastbound.

There is also a current planning application to build 120 units of
affordable housing on it - which makes me think that not many people
picnic there.

You think that aspect was taken into consideration?

:-\

--
Brian
"When all about you is crumbling, when the arse is falling out of your
world, you need to focus on something positive in your life. Something you
can control, improve even."

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

Robin Cox wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message
...
This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on
M48), Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

Isn't Scratchwood now "London Gateway"?

And if so, why did they change the name?

And why did they change Hilton Park (M6) to (can't remember name) and
back to Hilton Park again?

Not sure about Scratchwood, but Hilton Park was due to a new company taking
over and presumably wanting to put their own mark on it. They called it
Birmingham North, even though it's 10 miles from M6 J7.

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , John Rowland
writes
"JB" wrote in message
...

Actually I agree they used to be horrible (very occasionally
I'll stumble across an unreconstructed one).

I don't agree! My favourite service station is the unreconstructed Medway on
the M2. I think it used to be called Farthing Corner. It should be listed,
because you can really feel the vision of the original motorway service
stations there. The architect clearly believed in the fahn fahn fahn off der
autobahn. The newer service stations see the motorway as a hotrrible source
of noise and fumes to be ignored at all cost.

There *has* actually been a move to get Medway Services [1] listed.

Incidentally, do you know that the overbridge restaurant there was
originally open air?! The idea was that you would have this sort of
"Continental meets Space Age" dining experience of the All New Motorway,
something which would be Quite Different. Of course, it was soon
realised that the weather would render it unusable for a large amount of
time and it was roofed over [2].


[1] You're right to say that it was once called "Farthing Corner".

[2] I'm not sure when, though. Does anyone know?

--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Annabel Smyth
writes
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 at 17:36:35, Dave Liney wrote:

As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

They seem to manage in France.

Talking of which, why can't we have what they have in France and
Germany, where only every other service area has petrol and food, but
the intermediate ones have a place to park, with picnic tables and loos
and possibly/probably telephones and a local information board?
"Les aires de repos", or "rest areas", a wonderful idea and one which I,
too, can't understand why we've never repeated here.

In fact, in France at least, the proportion of these to "full blown"
service areas is much greater, maybe four or five to one. Indeed,
large scale service areas are actually few and far between in France; I
know as I frequently used to have to find the blasted places to keep
groups of 49 people on British coaches happy!

We did, in fact, once have a single, solitary "aire de repos" in
Britain. It was called the Brent Knoll Picnic area and was on the M5
in Somerset, in the shadow of the hill of the same name. It's now been
converted to a "full blown" service area called "Sedgemoor".

Okay, so they have
those, too - and some very nice ones, like the Aire du Baie de la Somme
near Abbeville
I used this recently for the first time. It is - as you say -
wonderful, not least because of its setting.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Robin Cox
writes
There is a picnic area at Heston (M4) Eastbound.
I've never noticed that. Is it slightly off the motorway (ie you leave
at a junction rather than pulling off onto an "in line" parking area"?

There is also a current planning application to build 120 units of
affordable housing on it - which makes me think that not many people
picnic there.
Bad siting I suspect. Too close to London to be a "convenient break,
especially for "picnic" type meals. And would *you* choose to picnic
in Heston?! ;-)

--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Richard J.
writes
This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

They do seem to have become much more common in recent times, though.

It adds traffic to the junction roundabout, possibly requiring a bigger
junction than would otherwise be necessary, and it adds journey time.
This is certainly the case at Cherwell valley Services, where,
especially since the remodelling of the A43 junction, it seems to take
*ages* to get from the slip road to the services!

It also, in my experience, leads to lower standards in the service area,
perhaps because big does not necessarily mean better.
I haven't personally noticed a difference between standards depending on
the type of service access layout. Rather, it is usually between older
and less used services (eg Frankley) and newer and busier ones (Oxford),
the former being poor and the latter rather better.

What they nearly all have in common is extremely inefficient,
ill-trained staff.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

In message , Robin Cox
writes
"Richard J." wrote in message
...
This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

Isn't Scratchwood now "London Gateway"?

And if so, why did they change the name?
Because "Scratchwood" had a reputation for being awful so (oldest trick
in the book) they went for a rebranding.

Incidentally, to get this back on topic for London (!) I would point out
that the guns on HMS Belfast are permanently trained on
Scratchwood/London Gateway. Unfortunately, they never fire...... ;-)

And why did they change Hilton Park (M6) to (can't remember name)
"Birmingham North"

and
back to Hilton Park again?
Because it was nowhere near Birmingham.

Frankley also became "Birmingham South" for a while, before changing
back. It was particularly noticeable in that instance as it lies, er,
West of Birmingham!

--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

London Orbital (M25) - Service Areas
 

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:53:47 GMT, "Robin Cox"
wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message
...
This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

Isn't Scratchwood now "London Gateway"?

And if so, why did they change the name?

And why did they change Hilton Park (M6) to (can't remember name) and
back to Hilton Park again?

Service stations were usually traditionally named for the closest
settlement. Recently, there has been a move to relabel them for much
larger towns. So Hilton Park - Birmingham North, Forton (M6) became
Lancaster South and Bowburn (A1(M)) became Durham.

Some people protested and so a few service areas have reverted to
their original names.

Sam
--
Sam Holloway, Cambridge