"Jonn Elledge" wrote in message ...
More useful, is it possible to send CrossRail through the CTRL link
from Stratford to Ebbsfleet?


Why? The point of the Ebbsfleet branch is surely not to link Ebbsfleet to
Crossrail, but to connect the Isle of Dogs, Royal Docks and other more
populated parts of North Kent.

Thinking about this, I now agree - forget running CrossRail trains
through the CTRL. But what domestic services should be run through the
CTRL from 2007? After all, operators should start to order rolling
stock about now.

CTRL capacity is 16 tph. CTRL say there'll be capacity for 8 Eurostar
tph, but at present they can't fill three, so I reckon there could be
8 to 12 domestic trains per hour running each way from St Pancras to
Ebbsfleet. These could in theory be 16 cars long. Where should they
go?

Here's my thoughts. Assuming dual voltage trains that can run off
overhead or third rail:

1. 4 tph from Ebbsfleet to Chatham via Strood, where the train would
divide, with half going to Dover Priory and the other half to
Ramsgate. This would require a link to Dartford - Chatham line at
Ebbsfleet, and I suspect a lengthening of platforms at Chatham.
Without the link, I'd run the regional services as far as Dartford,
and accept (a) lots of changing at Swanscombe / Ebbsfleet, and (b)
running lots of half empty trains to Ashford.

2. 4 tph using the CTRL phase 1 to Ashford. There the train would
divide into three, with sections going to Hastins via Rye; to Margate
via Dover Priory; to Ramsgate via Rye.

3. 2 tph going to Tonbridge via Strood, Maidstone West and Paddock
Wood. (Tonbridge to London would still be faster via Sevenoaks)

4. A few Intercity Services, such as Ashford, Ebbsfleet, Stratford,
Watford Junction, Milton Keynes and beyond.

This would provide faster, more comfortable and reliable services into
London for most of East Kent. Once CrossRail comes on stream, many
commuters would change to CrossRail at Ebbsfleet or Stratford. Until
then, this would put extra strain on Stratford to London services
(overground and underground) - though perhaps improved bus links from
Stratford could help.

Services from East Kent (beyond Ashford and Chatham) to London Bridge
would be curtailed (there would still be stopping services from
Ashford and Ebbsfleet), and the capacity freed up would be improve the
Hastings via Tunbridge Wells service, as well as local SE London
services.

Any thoughts?

After posting the message I found this:

http://www.medway.gov.uk/oco20030128r-7.pdf

It dates from Jan 2003, and broadly agrees with me, and calls for more
research. I suspect that nothing has been done, in line with the usual
British policy on infrastructures, e.g.

- Build the channel tunnel. When finished, start planning CTRL.
- Build Heathrow Terminal 5. When finished, start planning rail links
(Airtrack).
- Build CTRL. When finished, start planning links to Kent rail and
perhaps ordering rolling stock.

The main issue identified in the report is the fact that the Dover to
Folkstone tunnel can't take modern trains. This would therefore need
to be maintained by a local service, say Folkstone to Ramsgate.
(Currently a 48 minute journey for some reason)

"Alex Terrell" wrote

- Build the channel tunnel. When finished, start planning CTRL.
- Build Heathrow Terminal 5. When finished, start planning rail links
(Airtrack).
- Build CTRL. When finished, start planning links to Kent rail and
perhaps ordering rolling stock.


As against the other side of the Channel where the high speed link south
from the tunnel was completed and lying dormant for quite some time before
tunnel was completed.

"Alex Terrell" a écrit dans le message de
om...
"Jonn Elledge" wrote in message
...
More useful, is it possible to send CrossRail through the CTRL link
from Stratford to Ebbsfleet?


Why? The point of the Ebbsfleet branch is surely not to link Ebbsfleet
to
Crossrail, but to connect the Isle of Dogs, Royal Docks and other more
populated parts of North Kent.

Thinking about this, I now agree - forget running CrossRail trains
through the CTRL. But what domestic services should be run through the
CTRL from 2007? After all, operators should start to order rolling
stock about now.

CTRL capacity is 16 tph. CTRL say there'll be capacity for 8 Eurostar
tph, but at present they can't fill three, so I reckon there could be
8 to 12 domestic trains per hour running each way from St Pancras to
Ebbsfleet. These could in theory be 16 cars long. Where should they
go?

Here's my thoughts. Assuming dual voltage trains that can run off
overhead or third rail:

SNIP

Any thoughts?

Your assumptions about the operation of Eurostars might not be valid,
because as others have already pointed out, the present constraints, which
are not very sensible, are liable to change. In particular, the reduction in
journey times and improved timekeeping resulting from the completion of
CTRL2 should boost demand substantially.

But other potential changes could have a far greater impact, eg the
introduction of measures to reduce congestion at London's airports by
reducing the number of slots allocated for flights on routes where the
overall journey time is typically longer than that by rail.

The basic problem is that there is no obvious way to recover the enormous
investment required to build the CRTL or Crossrail directly from fees paid
its users (especially commuters); as in similar cases (eg the Jubilee Line
and ELL extensions), the lion's share of the economic benefit goes to local
landowners, who enjoy signficant consequential increases in property values.
Only when you have solved it can we start meaningful discussions of train
services.

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels - mind the spamtrap)