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Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Hi all,.
At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. There are none of the normal right-turn-banned signs at all. Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment, I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. I also don't see why they didn't just mount a right-turn-banned sign. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. There are none of the normal right-turn-banned signs at all. Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment, I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. I also don't see why they didn't just mount a right-turn-banned sign. Agreed that it would be easier for all concerned if TPTB erected appropriate signs but why does everything have to gave a law requiring people to behave in a certain fashion or possess a specific item of knowledge? Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Brimstone" wrote in message
... "John Rowland" wrote in message ... At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. Agreed that it would be easier for all concerned if TPTB erected appropriate signs but why does everything have to gave a law requiring people to behave in a certain fashion or possess a specific item of knowledge? Huh? Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? Yes! Even if you did know, you could easily deny it. Many cars do the right turn here. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
John Rowland wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote: "John Rowland" wrote: At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. Agreed that it would be easier for all concerned if TPTB erected appropriate signs but why does everything have to gave a law requiring people to behave in a certain fashion or possess a specific item of knowledge? Huh? I think he is asking why - even without a formal and appropriately-signed ban - drivers cannot enter into the spirit of the "request" and refrain from making the maneouvre the authorities clearly frown on. Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? Yes! Even if you did know, you could easily deny it. Many cars do the right turn here. Over thirty years ago, there used to be similar signs in Camden Town, "banning" traffic heading north along the A400 towards Kentish Town from turning right into several side-streets. They may still be there. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.749 / Virus Database: 501 - Release Date: 01/09/04 |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
John Rowland wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote in message ... "John Rowland" wrote in message ... At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. Agreed that it would be easier for all concerned if TPTB erected appropriate signs but why does everything have to gave a law requiring people to behave in a certain fashion or possess a specific item of knowledge? Huh? Your comment, "Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment", refers. Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? Yes! Even if you did know, you could easily deny it. Many cars do the right turn here. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In article , John Rowland says...
Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , Brimstone
writes Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? I would agree with that, I have a GPS in the car and having driven around a strange town it is often quite surprising to find the direction I'm heading is nothing like the one I thought I was. With roundabouts and subtle bends in the road it is well high impossible to keep track of compass directions. -- Bill |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Joanne wrote:
In article , John Rowland says... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. The Highway Code does show the no-entry sign, and has a general comment "plates below signs qualify their message". Anyway, the HC shows "many of the signs commonly in use", but not all of them. In my experience, no-entry signs like these are generally angled towards the prohibited direction, and from a distance are rather more immediately obvious in their intent than no-right-turn signs. This is because people see the no-entry sign before they are close enough to read the words. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Joanne wrote:
In article , John Rowland says... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. Why? As long as ots meaning and intention are plain why can't people be expected to comply? This is yet another example of the attitude that leads to the kind of petty rules that so many people complain about. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
It was a dark and stormy night when JNugent
e.co.uk wrote in article ... ver thirty years ago, there used to be similar signs in Camden Town, "banning" traffic heading north along the A400 towards Kentish Town from turning right into several side-streets. They may still be there. They are certainly still there along Camden Road towards Nag's Head. Grebbsy -- "All vampires suck, but not all who suck are vampires." (--B.J.Kuehl) :::Grebbsy :::::::lemon curry?::: |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Brimstone wrote:
Joanne wrote: John Rowland says... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. Why? As long as ots meaning and intention are plain why can't people be expected to comply? If the sign said "Post a cheque for £10 to [insert name of your hate figure]", would you still expect people to "comply"? If not, why not? This is yet another example of the attitude that leads to the kind of petty rules that so many people complain about. Let's get this straight... You say that people should obey petty rules without compulsion, and that if they don't, the authorities are justified in setting the petty rules in law? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/04 |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In article , Brimstone says...
Joanne wrote: In article , John Rowland says... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. Why? As long as ots meaning and intention are plain why can't people be expected to comply? 2 points (1) What's the point if having a HC if local authorities can go round sticking up any old sign? In general signs such be graphic and follow international rules. It can be difficult to read qualifying text under a sign (we do have to look out for other road users too) and also what about foreign drivers? (2) I would assume fact a sign has some sort of legal status gives it protection against being copied. In the extreme you'd never know if a sign was put up by appropriate authorties or if any tom, dick or harry had stuck it there. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Richard J. wrote:
Joanne wrote: Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. The Highway Code does show the no-entry sign, and has a general comment "plates below signs qualify their message". Anyway, the HC shows "many of the signs commonly in use", but not all of them. And if you look at the manual used by people who put up the signs, you find the only exception allowed with 'no entry' is buses. A much wider range is allowed with 'no right (or left) turn'. I looked at a road yesterday with a view to exempting cyclists from a banned turn. Only one car came along while I was there - and it disobeyed the ban. Colin McKenzie -- The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that it leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead! |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:08:31 +0100 someone who may be Colin McKenzie
wrote this:- The Highway Code does show the no-entry sign, and has a general comment "plates below signs qualify their message". Anyway, the HC shows "many of the signs commonly in use", but not all of them. And if you look at the manual used by people who put up the signs, you find the only exception allowed with 'no entry' is buses. There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". A few years ago there was mention in the paper of someone claiming these signs were invalid. However, I have not heard more and imagine that is because the someone has discovered their assertion is incorrect. If their assertion had been shown to be correct you may be sure that the paper would have made a fuss about it. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
..
I looked at a road yesterday with a view to exempting cyclists from a banned turn. Isn't that rather pointless as they'd do it whether or not is banned? |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Colin McKenzie" wrote in message
... Richard J. wrote: Joanne wrote: Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. The Highway Code does show the no-entry sign, and has a general comment "plates below signs qualify their message". Anyway, the HC shows "many of the signs commonly in use", but not all of them. And if you look at the manual used by people who put up the signs, you find the only exception allowed with 'no entry' is buses. A much wider range is allowed with 'no right (or left) turn'. I looked at a road yesterday with a view to exempting cyclists from a banned turn. Only one car came along while I was there - and it disobeyed the ban. The regulations say a 'except cycles' is a permitted variant http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"John Rowland" wrote in message
... At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. There are none of the normal right-turn-banned signs at all. Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment, I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. I also don't see why they didn't just mount a right-turn-banned sign. 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. However, it would be interesting to see what the traffic order says |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"David Hansen" wrote in message
... On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:08:31 +0100 someone who may be Colin McKenzie wrote this:- The Highway Code does show the no-entry sign, and has a general comment "plates below signs qualify their message". Anyway, the HC shows "many of the signs commonly in use", but not all of them. And if you look at the manual used by people who put up the signs, you find the only exception allowed with 'no entry' is buses. There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". A few years ago there was mention in the paper of someone claiming these signs were invalid. However, I have not heard more and imagine that is because the someone has discovered their assertion is incorrect. If their assertion had been shown to be correct you may be sure that the paper would have made a fuss about it. How few years ago? They get a special mention in http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19pII2 21 (Plates to be placed only...) (2) A plate shown... Diagram 616 is 'No Entry'; 954.6 and 954.7 are 'Except buses and cycles' & 'Except buses cycles and taxis'. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Brimstone wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 5 Sep 2004:
Are you seriously suggesting that most people don't know which compass direction a road lies along? Dammit, I don't usually know whether I'm turning left or right! -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
On 5 Sep 2004 06:52:40 -0700 someone who may be Joanne
wrote this:- I looked at a road yesterday with a view to exempting cyclists from a banned turn. Isn't that rather pointless as they'd do it whether or not is banned? Nice try, but rather boring. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:07:29 +0100 someone who may be "Nick Finnigan"
wrote this:- And if you look at the manual used by people who put up the signs, you find the only exception allowed with 'no entry' is buses. There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". How few years ago? Certainly no earlier than 2000. No idea which side of 2002 it was though. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"JNugent" wrote in message ... Brimstone wrote: Joanne wrote: John Rowland says... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. Is there such a sign in the highway code? IIRC the rules are slightly more complex and the HC is not the definitive guide, and "temporary" signs are allowed for a testing period. Having said that it is taking the **** to expect people to follow a sign that's not in the HC.. Why? As long as ots meaning and intention are plain why can't people be expected to comply? If the sign said "Post a cheque for £10 to [insert name of your hate figure]", would you still expect people to "comply"? If not, why not? This is yet another example of the attitude that leads to the kind of petty rules that so many people complain about. Let's get this straight... You say that people should obey petty rules without compulsion, and that if they don't, the authorities are justified in setting the petty rules in law? It's refreshing to see that your ability to twist things is a strong as ever. That is not what I'm saying as you well know. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Nick Finnigan wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". A few years ago there was mention in the paper of someone claiming these signs were invalid. However, I have not heard more and imagine that is because the someone has discovered their assertion is incorrect. If their assertion had been shown to be correct you may be sure that the paper would have made a fuss about it. How few years ago? They get a special mention in http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19pII2 21 (Plates to be placed only...) (2) A plate shown... Diagram 616 is 'No Entry'; 954.6 and 954.7 are 'Except buses and cycles' & 'Except buses cycles and taxis'. And, from that document, signs allowed with it are 954, 954.2, 1046, and 1048.3. Respectively 'except buses', 'except local buses', 'no entry', and 'bus only'. (The last two are painted on the road). Colin McKenzie -- The great advantage of not trusting statistics is that it leaves you free to believe the damned lies instead! |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Nick Finnigan wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. There are none of the normal right-turn-banned signs at all. Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment, I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. I also don't see why they didn't just mount a right-turn-banned sign. 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. However, it would be interesting to see what the traffic order says Eh? You're saying that disobeying a mandatory "no-right-turn" sign is not an offence? Please explain; I'm not sure what you mean by a "strict" offence. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
... 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. That's ironic, because virtually everyone who performs a banned right turn is committing a deliberate crime, whereas virtually everyone who goes through a No Entry sign (except at this junction) does so by mistake. But anyway, perhaps you have found the key to the issue. Highgate is packed full of Guardian readers, and Guardian readers believe it's okay to do what the hell they like so long as they feel guilty afterwards, so maybe an earlier banned-right-turn sign was being ignored so much by the locals that TPTB decided to up the ante to a more serious offence. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Richard J." wrote in message
... Nick Finnigan wrote: 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. Eh? You're saying that disobeying a mandatory "no-right-turn" sign is not an offence? Please explain; I'm not sure what you mean by a "strict" offence. "No Entry" is simply defined, and crossing the line allows a prosecution for failure to obey a road sign (unless there is an invalid exception plate). "Right turn" is vague, as is the area where it is prohibited, so the prosecution would have to prove driving/cycling without due care and attention. If a cyclist dismounted, turned the bike through 90 degrees and cycled ahead, is an offence committed? |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, John Rowland wrote:
"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message ... 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. That's ironic, because virtually everyone who performs a banned right turn is committing a deliberate crime, whereas virtually everyone who goes through a No Entry sign (except at this junction) does so by mistake. But anyway, perhaps you have found the key to the issue. Highgate is packed full of Guardian readers, and Guardian readers believe it's okay to do what the hell they like so long as they feel guilty afterwards, so maybe an earlier banned-right-turn sign was being ignored so much by the locals that TPTB decided to up the ante to a more serious offence. Is it your time of the month or something, John? tom -- GOLDIE LOOKIN' CHAIN [...] will ultimately make all other forms of music both redundant and unnecessary -- ntk |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 6 Sep 2004:
That's ironic, because virtually everyone who performs a banned right turn is committing a deliberate crime, whereas virtually everyone who goes through a No Entry sign (except at this junction) does so by mistake. Not here they don't - there is a very silly little bit of one-way street outside my block of flats that serves no conceivable purpose except to make life difficult. And it is widely ignored, or else people simply reverse down it - it's only about 25 yards long. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
... On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, John Rowland wrote: "Nick Finnigan" wrote in message ... 'No right turn' is not a strict offence, whereas 'no entry' is. That's ironic, because virtually everyone who performs a banned right turn is committing a deliberate crime, whereas virtually everyone who goes through a No Entry sign (except at this junction) does so by mistake. But anyway, perhaps you have found the key to the issue. Highgate is packed full of Guardian readers, and Guardian readers believe it's okay to do what the hell they like so long as they feel guilty afterwards, so maybe an earlier banned-right-turn sign was being ignored so much by the locals that TPTB decided to up the ante to a more serious offence. Is it your time of the month or something, John? It's always my time of the month. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , at 14:52:15 on
Sun, 5 Sep 2004, David Hansen remarked: There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". A few years ago there was mention in the paper of someone claiming these signs were invalid. However, I have not heard more and imagine that is because the someone has discovered their assertion is incorrect. There have been long-running debates in Cambridge over signs that might say "No Entry - except for cycles", which some people think would work well in the local context of a few roads. The Cambridge City Council continues to insist that such signs are illegal (presumably advised by the Cambridgeshire County Council), even though they are to be found in Peterborough (which is a Unitary Authority). The stand-off continues, but few Peterborough traffic planners seem to end up in jail. -- Roland Perry |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , at 15:07:29 on Sun, 5 Sep
2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: How few years ago? They get a special mention in http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19pII2 21 (Plates to be placed only...) (2) A plate shown... Diagram 616 is 'No Entry'; 954.6 and 954.7 are 'Except buses and cycles' & 'Except buses cycles and taxis'. Interestingly the rule [#69 in the table] for 954.4 "Except Cycles" doesn't include sign 616 "No Entry". -- Roland Perry |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , at 14:58:51 on Sun, 5 Sep
2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: The regulations say a 'except cycles' is a permitted variant http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif But nothing on that page says "except cycles". -- Roland Perry |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"John Rowland" wrote in message
... Hi all,. At the north end of South Grove in Highgate, North London, are no-entry signs with text beneath reading "No Entry Except From East". In effect they are saying that you can do a left-turn into South Grove but you can't do a right-turn into it. There are none of the normal right-turn-banned signs at all. Since drivers are not legally required to carry a compass or know the direction in which they are travelling at a particular moment, I don't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for doing a right turn here. I also don't see why they didn't just mount a right-turn-banned sign. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes I believe that all new road signs must be EU approved and one bearing the legend "No Entry Except From East" would not be EU approved, so the sign is in fact illegal and has no compulsion. Regards Mike. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03-Sep-2004 |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk... In message , at 14:58:51 on Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: The regulations say a 'except cycles' is a permitted variant http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif But nothing on that page says "except cycles". The table under 954.4 has item 4 with a permitted variant. However, I now realize these round plates are mainly used on traffic lights with banned turns, and 'No Entries', which usually have rectangular plates underneath, might not be covered there. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk... well in the local context of a few roads. The Cambridge City Council continues to insist that such signs are illegal (presumably advised by the Cambridgeshire County Council), even though they are to be found in Peterborough (which is a Unitary Authority). The stand-off continues, but few Peterborough traffic planners seem to end up in jail. 'Contrary to the Regulations (or Directions)' does not mean that an offence is commited AFAIK. More likely is that the restriction is not be enforceable, but only off-duty PCs are likely to spot the problem, know that the sign was erected after 2002, and bother to defend themselves in a courtroom. |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , at 15:36:49 on Mon, 6 Sep
2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: well in the local context of a few roads. The Cambridge City Council continues to insist that such signs are illegal (presumably advised by the Cambridgeshire County Council), even though they are to be found in Peterborough (which is a Unitary Authority). The stand-off continues, but few Peterborough traffic planners seem to end up in jail. 'Contrary to the Regulations (or Directions)' does not mean that an offence is commited AFAIK. More likely is that the restriction is not be enforceable, but only off-duty PCs are likely to spot the problem, know that the sign was erected after 2002, and bother to defend themselves in a courtroom. A good question is: who would prosecute a cyclist for passing a sign that said "No Entry - Except Cyclists" (in this instance it allows access to a contra-flow solid-line cycle lane on an otherwise one-way street). But the Cambridge city fathers seem convinced that someone would get cross with them if they put up a sign which wasn't in the book. -- Roland Perry |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
In message , at 15:31:02 on Mon, 6 Sep
2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: The regulations say a 'except cycles' is a permitted variant http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif But nothing on that page says "except cycles". The table under 954.4 has item 4 with a permitted variant. However, I now realize these round plates are mainly used on traffic lights with banned turns, and 'No Entries', which usually have rectangular plates underneath, might not be covered there. Look at Item 3 of 954.4, and you'll see that it doesn't list 616 (which is the "No Entry" sign). Interstingly, 954.7 lists as variants: Except local buses and cycles and Except local buses and taxis Now, as there is no such thing as a "local cycle", we must conclude that the latter refers to all taxis, and not just local ones. Which answers a different question that's been asked from time to time. -- Roland Perry |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote in message
... I believe that all new road signs must be EU approved and one bearing the legend "No Entry Except From East" would not be EU approved, so the sign is in fact illegal and has no compulsion. The text sign may be void, but does that mean that the No Entry roundel above it on the same pole is also void? -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:31:02 on Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Nick Finnigan remarked: .... Look at Item 3 of 954.4, and you'll see that it doesn't list 616 (which is the "No Entry" sign). Interstingly, 954.7 lists as variants: Except local buses and cycles and Except local buses and taxis Now, as there is no such thing as a "local cycle", we must conclude that the latter refers to all taxis, and not just local ones. Which answers a different question that's been asked from time to time. Er, Hello? Did the following message propagate at all? Nick Finnigan wrote: "David Hansen" wrote in message ... There are plenty of no-entry signs in Edinburgh, with plates below them saying things like "Except for buses, cycles and taxis". A few years ago there was mention in the paper of someone claiming these signs were invalid. However, I have not heard more and imagine that is because the someone has discovered their assertion is incorrect. If their assertion had been shown to be correct you may be sure that the paper would have made a fuss about it. How few years ago? They get a special mention in http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19pII2 21 (Plates to be placed only...) (2) A plate shown... Diagram 616 is 'No Entry'; 954.6 and 954.7 are 'Except buses and cycles' & 'Except buses cycles and taxis'. Especially my bit, which starts at the page for diag. 616: And, from that document, signs allowed with it are 954, 954.2, 1046, and 1048.3. Respectively 'except buses', 'except local buses', 'no entry', and 'bus only'. (The last two are painted on the road). Colin McKenzie |
Unenforceable banned right turn in Highgate London
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk... A good question is: who would prosecute a cyclist for passing a sign that said "No Entry - Except Cyclists" (in this instance it allows access to a contra-flow solid-line cycle lane on an otherwise one-way street). Downing Street? I thought someone posted a while ago that the "No Entry" signs were each side of the main 'one-way' lane, and so the contraflow cycle lane is not "No Entry". I think that is legitimate signing, and any vehicle which fits in the contra-flow lane may travel the 'wrong' way. |
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