I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

M.

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

Spending money "oop norf" is politically bad. Unless is wasting it on a
scottish parliament.
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.

Paul Weaver wrote:

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

Spending money "oop norf" is politically bad. Unless is wasting it on a
scottish parliament.
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.

Well that's not it - look at the empty track bed where East London Line Ext
should have been running by now.

M.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:49:39 +0000 (UTC), marcb
wrote:

I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

M.

Originally it was about £500m with £300m coming from central
government. Now it is up to about £1000m with £500m coming from
central government with costs still rising... Furthermore, GMPTE are
requesting increased annual funding for maintenance.

Darling has got cold feet (on light rail in general) and has pulled
the plug on it in its current form (which, to be fair to the PTE is
largely down to the state insisting the private sector takes all the
risk thus inflating prices).

GMPTE are miffed because their entire public transport strategy
appears to be built around Metrolink to the detriment of everything
else (IMHO). Metrolink has done well where they have converted heavy
rail lines to LRT (eg Altringcham-Manchester-Bury) and very badly on
the largely on-street section from Cornbrook to Eccles as it is much
slower than the corresponding rail and bus services and much more
expensive (Eccles-Manchester is 25 minutes by tram and 8 minutes by
rail!). Furthermore, heavy rail conversion is much cheaper than
on-street stuff. No need to move utilities etc. Expect to see some
pruning of the project!


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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:18:31 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

Spending money "oop norf" is politically bad. Unless is wasting it on a
scottish parliament.

That's why they've spent £7 billion upgrading the West Coast Main
Line, then...?
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:02:01 +0100, Cheeky wrote:

GMPTE are miffed because their entire public transport strategy
appears to be built around Metrolink to the detriment of everything
else (IMHO). snip

I'd agree with that. The main reason, as I see it, is that Metrolink
(and, for that matter, the majority of the shoddy bus service) does
not require an ongoing operational subsidy, while the regular local
heavy rail operation does.

IMO, the best solution for the Oldham Loop, for example, is not trams,
but 25kV overhead line and new, high-acceleration heavy rail EMUs to
form a German-style S-Bahn. The trams have their place, but it is not
in taking over a perfectly good heavy rail system, increasing fares
and slowing journeys. It is also not (in the case of Eccles) in
operating routes that are substantially faster by bus!

The comparison with the far more professional, heavy-rail-friendly and
pro-integrated-transport PTE Merseytravel just 30-odd miles down the
M62 could not be more marked.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

"Cheeky" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:18:31 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

Spending money "oop norf" is politically bad. Unless is wasting it on a
scottish parliament.

That's why they've spent £7 billion upgrading the West Coast Main
Line, then...?

To help people that need to get to London.
--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:25:48 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

"Cheeky" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:18:31 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

"marcb" wrote in message
...
I see the people of Manchester are uspet about the shelving of their
tram extensions, and quite rightly. But what exactly are the costs that
can't be quantified in this and other projects?

Spending money "oop norf" is politically bad. Unless is wasting it on a
scottish parliament.

That's why they've spent £7 billion upgrading the West Coast Main
Line, then...?

To help people that need to get to London.

Or from Manchester to Birmingham/CUmbria/Scotland etc...
--

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(Neil Williams) wrote in
:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:02:01 +0100, Cheeky wrote:

GMPTE are miffed because their entire public transport strategy
appears to be built around Metrolink to the detriment of everything
else (IMHO). snip

I'd agree with that. The main reason, as I see it, is that Metrolink
(and, for that matter, the majority of the shoddy bus service) does
not require an ongoing operational subsidy, while the regular local
heavy rail operation does.

IMO, the best solution for the Oldham Loop, for example, is not trams,
but 25kV overhead line and new, high-acceleration heavy rail EMUs to
form a German-style S-Bahn. The trams have their place, but it is not
in taking over a perfectly good heavy rail system, increasing fares
and slowing journeys. It is also not (in the case of Eccles) in
operating routes that are substantially faster by bus!

The comparison with the far more professional, heavy-rail-friendly and
pro-integrated-transport PTE Merseytravel just 30-odd miles down the
M62 could not be more marked.

Neil


Isn't the difference that Liverpool Central is actually in the centre (as
is Lime Street, just about) which can't really be said for either
Manchester Victoria or Piccadilly (or Oldham Mumps/Werneth for that
matter)?

Metrolink actually takes people to where they want to go - it would
transform useage of the Oldham Loop in a way no heavy rail solution ever
could.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:14:14 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:02:01 +0100, Cheeky wrote:

GMPTE are miffed because their entire public transport strategy
appears to be built around Metrolink to the detriment of everything
else (IMHO). snip

I'd agree with that. The main reason, as I see it, is that Metrolink
(and, for that matter, the majority of the shoddy bus service) does
not require an ongoing operational subsidy, while the regular local
heavy rail operation does.

Indeed. It's notable that the entire Greater Manchester heavy rail
network carries fewer passengers than Metrolink but when you see the
state of it and the total absence of any marketing from GMPTE it's no
real surprise.

IMO, the best solution for the Oldham Loop, for example, is not trams,
but 25kV overhead line and new, high-acceleration heavy rail EMUs to
form a German-style S-Bahn. The trams have their place, but it is not
in taking over a perfectly good heavy rail system, increasing fares
and slowing journeys. It is also not (in the case of Eccles) in
operating routes that are substantially faster by bus!

Agreed. Although even half-decent DMUs would improve services on the
Oldham loop....

Also where are all the people in Wythenshawe and Northern Moor going
to find the cash to use the tram? £8 per week for an all (stagecoach)
services bus ticket compared to £30-ish for a tram ticket. It's a
no-brainer.

The comparison with the far more professional, heavy-rail-friendly and
pro-integrated-transport PTE Merseytravel just 30-odd miles down the
M62 could not be more marked.

Neil

Quite. I live in the Manchester and used to live in (West) Yorkshire
and GMPTE are by far the worst of the bunch, in my experience


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