In message , at 17:28:34 on
Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Peter Lawrence remarked:
But there was a plan to link the two St Paul's's

tricky one... "two St Paul's" as a contraction of "two St Paul's
stations"?

Where's Lynne Truss when you need her :-)

at one stage which
would have made the names sensible.

Someone recently speculated about the possibility of linking the
northern end of City Thameslink with a new station under Holborn Viaduct
(the street east of the bridge itself). Isn't it rather a long way
otherwise?
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Paul Terry wrote:

In message ,
Tom Anderson writes

Why were there two Holborn Viaduct stations, then? AIUI, the low level
station was the first to be built,

The high level terminus was opened on 2 March 1874; the low level
through station (Snow Hill) was opened 1 August 1874. Basically they
were planned as a complementary pair of stations.

Ah, i see. So, in a way, they're really just two sets of platforms in one
station.

tom

--
roger and kay payne, symmetry, piercing, archaeology, position, in ,,

Paul Terry writes:
In fact, the original St Paul's station was what is now Blackfriars
(Thameslink) - the name was changed in 1937 when LT renamed "Post
Office" on the Central Line as "St Paul's".

And the original Blackfriars station was a terminal station on the
south bank of the river.

The line was opened from Herne Hill to Elephant & Castle in 1862, then
extended to the original Blackfriars in 1864. Later the same year a
short branch was made from just before this station, crossing the
river to Ludgate Hill. This was originally a temporary terminus,
replaced in 1865 with a permanent station, which became a through station
when the Snow Hill Tunnel and the link to the Metropolitan Railway at
Farringdon were opened in 1866.

In 1874 the branch off this route to Holborn Viaduct was opened, and
the same year Snow Hill station was added to the through route, so
now there were four stations in the area, two through and two terminal.

In 1886 the branch to the original Blackfriars was closed, and yet
another short new branch crossed the Thames on a new bridge to reach
the new terminus of St. Paul's -- now Blackfriars. In 1910 this was
converted to a through station, allowing trains to continue from it
to Farringdon as they do now.

Snow Hill station, renamed Holborn Viaduct Low Level, closed in 1916
along with the through passenger services, which reappeared in 1988 as
Thameslink. With the closure, Ludgate Hill became a terminus again,
and it closed in 1929. In 1990 Holborn Viaduct closed and St. Paul's
Thameslink, now City Thameslink, opened on more or less the site of
Ludgate Hill station.
--
Mark Brader | lying
Toronto | abort reply.
| -- random words at end of a spam message

My text in this article is in the public domain.

In article , (Mark Brader) wrote:

And the original Blackfriars station was a terminal station on the
south bank of the river.

The line was opened from Herne Hill to Elephant & Castle in 1862, then
extended to the original Blackfriars in 1864. Later the same year a
short branch was made from just before this station, crossing the
river to Ludgate Hill. This was originally a temporary terminus,
replaced in 1865 with a permanent station, which became a through
station
when the Snow Hill Tunnel and the link to the Metropolitan Railway at
Farringdon were opened in 1866.

In 1874 the branch off this route to Holborn Viaduct was opened, and
the same year Snow Hill station was added to the through route, so
now there were four stations in the area, two through and two
terminal.

In 1886 the branch to the original Blackfriars was closed, and yet
another short new branch crossed the Thames on a new bridge to reach
the new terminus of St. Paul's -- now Blackfriars.

Wouldn't the 1864 LCDR station have been Blackfriars Bridge? - it opened
on 1st June, the same day as the extension from Elephant & Castle, and
closed 1st October 1885. There was also an SER Blackfriars, which only
lasted 5 years - 11/1/1864-1/1/1869.

--
Peter Beale

Peter Beale wrote:
In article , (Mark
Brader) wrote:

And the original Blackfriars station was a terminal station on the
south bank of the river.

The line was opened from Herne Hill to Elephant & Castle in 1862,
then extended to the original Blackfriars in 1864. Later the same
year a short branch was made from just before this station,
crossing the river to Ludgate Hill. This was originally a
temporary terminus, replaced in 1865 with a permanent station,
which became a through station when the Snow Hill Tunnel and the
link to the Metropolitan Railway at Farringdon were opened in 1866.

In 1874 the branch off this route to Holborn Viaduct was opened,
and the same year Snow Hill station was added to the through route,
so now there were four stations in the area, two through and two
terminal.

In 1886 the branch to the original Blackfriars was closed, and yet
another short new branch crossed the Thames on a new bridge to
reach the new terminus of St. Paul's -- now Blackfriars.

Wouldn't the 1864 LCDR station have been Blackfriars Bridge? - it
opened on 1st June, the same day as the extension from Elephant &
Castle, and closed 1st October 1885.

It was Blackfriars according to H.P. White, my source of London railway
history. His dates agree with those in Mark's post, and he implies that
the old Blackfriars was closed at the same time as St Paul's was opened
on 10 May 1886. Do you have a source for "Blackfriars Bridge" and the
October 1885 closure date?

Incidentally amongst many old drawings glazed into the tiles in the
pedestrian tunnel under Blackriars road bridge (part of the Thames Path
on the south bank), there is at least one which shows the old
Blackfriars station. IIRC it's a view of the opening of the road bridge
by Queen Victoria in 1869.

There was also an SER Blackfriars, which only lasted 5 years -
11/1/1864-1/1/1869.

According to H.P. White, that was Blackfriars Road, opened as a
temporary station on the Charing Cross line pending the completion of
Waterloo Junction (now Waterloo East).
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. writes:
It was Blackfriars according to H.P. White, my source of London railway
history. His dates agree with those in Mark's post...

Well, that would be because most of what I posted came from H.P. White;
some details were from the Oxford Companion to British Railway History.
It's not an independent confirmation that I was right. However, checking
the Oxford Companion, I see that it confirms the name Blackfiars for the
south bank station, but gives 1885 for its closure date.

Anyone have a copy of "London's Termini"? That'd be the best source
I know of for this sort of thing, but I've only seen library copies.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Mark is probably right about something,
| but I forget what" -- Rayan Zachariassen

My text in this article is in the public domain.

In message , Mark Brader
writes

Richard J. writes:
It was Blackfriars according to H.P. White, my source of London railway
history. His dates agree with those in Mark's post...

Well, that would be because most of what I posted came from H.P. White;
some details were from the Oxford Companion to British Railway History.
It's not an independent confirmation that I was right. However, checking
the Oxford Companion, I see that it confirms the name Blackfiars for the
south bank station, but gives 1885 for its closure date.

Anyone have a copy of "London's Termini"? That'd be the best source
I know of for this sort of thing, but I've only seen library copies.

London's Termini gives the closing date (for passenger services) as 30th
September 1885.

--
Paul Terry

In article , (Richard J.) wrote:

[I asked:]

Wouldn't the 1864 LCDR station have been Blackfriars Bridge? - it
opened on 1st June, the same day as the extension from Elephant &
Castle, and closed 1st October 1885.

It was Blackfriars according to H.P. White, my source of London railway
history. His dates agree with those in Mark's post, and he implies that
the old Blackfriars was closed at the same time as St Paul's was opened
on 10 May 1886. Do you have a source for "Blackfriars Bridge" and the
October 1885 closure date?

"A Southern Region Chronology and Record 1803-1965", R.H.Clark, Oakwood
Press, 1964 (sic - must have had prophetic powers for 1965!), p66. Also for
SER Blackfriars. Whether he or White is right I do not know; but Blackfriars
Bridge does seem a more appropriate name for a station south of the Thames,
when Blackfriars proper is north.

--
Peter Beale

In message , Peter
Beale writes

"A Southern Region Chronology and Record 1803-1965", R.H.Clark, Oakwood
Press, 1964 (sic - must have had prophetic powers for 1965!), p66. Also for
SER Blackfriars. Whether he or White is right I do not know; but Blackfriars
Bridge does seem a more appropriate name for a station south of the Thames,
when Blackfriars proper is north.

Clark does seem to be correct - I suddenly remembered that I have a LCDR
route map from 1870, showing the city line complete to Ludgate Hill (and
under construction north thereof). This clearly marks the south-bank
station as Blackfriars Bridge.

See also the contemporary quote from Cruchley at:
http://www.victorianlondon.org/thame...ndrabridge.htm

And finally, while Jackson's "London Termini" calls the station
"Blackfriars" on pages 155, 191 and 193, on page 192 he refers to "This
Blackfriars Bridge station".

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message ,
Peter
Beale writes

"A Southern Region Chronology and Record 1803-1965", R.H.Clark,
Oakwood Press, 1964 (sic - must have had prophetic powers for
1965!), p66. Also for SER Blackfriars. Whether he or White is
right I do not know; but Blackfriars Bridge does seem a more
appropriate name for a station south of the Thames, when
Blackfriars proper is north.

Clark does seem to be correct - I suddenly remembered that I have a
LCDR route map from 1870, showing the city line complete to Ludgate
Hill (and under construction north thereof). This clearly marks the
south-bank station as Blackfriars Bridge.

See also the contemporary quote from Cruchley at:
http://www.victorianlondon.org/thame...ndrabridge.htm

He calls the first Blackfriars railway bridge Alexandra Bridge. But
several other websites say that Alexandra Bridge was the one built by
the SER in 1863-66 to serve Cannon Street Station.

And finally, while Jackson's "London Termini" calls the station
"Blackfriars" on pages 155, 191 and 193, on page 192 he refers to
"This Blackfriars Bridge station".

I would have expected the LCDR to call it Blackfriars originally, in the
way that railway companies named stations after whatever place they were
expecting the traffic to serve, however far away it actually was.
Perhaps they changed it to Blackfriars Bridge after Ludgate Hill opened.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)