Identification needed, please
 

On alt.binaries.pictures.rail I have posted this query and a photograph. The
photo is of the eastern side of the St Pancras trainshed. The strange object
at the bottom of the photo is the sleeve of the security guard who, for
reasons best known only to himself - probably National Security, was trying
to stop me taking this photo. The item I'd like identified is what looks
like the
mouth of a tunnel but I know there were no running tunnels there. Was it the
rail entrance to the milk dock or the beer cellars or what ?
I know I've posted a similar query before but got no response and just hope
that this time somebody with the answer will reply.
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

On alt.binaries.pictures.rail I have posted this query and a photograph. The
photo is of the eastern side of the St Pancras trainshed. The strange object
at the bottom of the photo is the sleeve of the security guard who, for
reasons best known only to himself - probably National Security, was trying
to stop me taking this photo. The item I'd like identified is what looks
like the
mouth of a tunnel but I know there were no running tunnels there. Was it the
rail entrance to the milk dock or the beer cellars or what ?
I know I've posted a similar query before but got no response and just hope
that this time somebody with the answer will reply.
Cheerz,
Baz

I've picked the image up in alt.binaries.pictures.rail but on my
Telewest server it will (I think) disappear after 4 days. Might be
better to open up a free website such as 150m.com to store images.

Most people here looking at your thread will be interested in old St
Pancras, but we less-knowledgable types could do with links to maps and
historical information, almost everyone knows someone who has or had a
friend or relative working on the railways mid 19th Century or nowadays.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Identification needed, please
 

Marratxi wrote:
On alt.binaries.pictures.rail I have posted this query and a photograph. The
photo is of the eastern side of the St Pancras trainshed. The strange object
at the bottom of the photo is the sleeve of the security guard who, for
reasons best known only to himself - probably National Security, was trying
to stop me taking this photo. The item I'd like identified is what looks
like the
mouth of a tunnel but I know there were no running tunnels there. Was it the
rail entrance to the milk dock or the beer cellars or what ?
I know I've posted a similar query before but got no response and just hope
that this time somebody with the answer will reply.
Cheerz,
Baz



The picture is also available at http://m33p.be/gallery/u_t_l. I won't
be removing it any time soon (unless Marratxi doesn't want it there).

--
Robert Gordon
http://m33p.be

Identification needed, please
 

"Robert Gordon" wrote in message
...

MY BIT SNIPPED (ouch !!)

The picture is also available at http://m33p.be/gallery/u_t_l. I won't
be removing it any time soon (unless Marratxi doesn't want it there).

--
Robert Gordon
http://m33p.be

Thanks, Robert, unfortunately no positive identification made despite my
message being on three newsgroups. I can't believe that nobody knows !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

Thanks, Robert, unfortunately no positive identification made despite my
message being on three newsgroups. I can't believe that nobody knows !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Could it be the Fleet River? I cannot find a link for its course at that
point but it is certainly very close and travels N-S.




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

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In message
ilgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

Thanks, Robert, unfortunately no positive identification made despite my
message being on three newsgroups. I can't believe that nobody knows !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Could it be the Fleet River? I cannot find a link for its course at that
point but it is certainly very close and travels N-S.

That's a very good suggestion. "London Under London" records that the
Fleet flows beneath Pancras Way and the sketch map shows it passing to
the west of King's Cross station. Furthermore,

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/flyers/contract.asp?ID=5051

mentions recent CTRL work being carried out in connection with the Fleet
Sewer ... so I think you may well have identified the photo!

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message


That's a very good suggestion. "London Under London" records that the
Fleet flows beneath Pancras Way and the sketch map shows it passing to
the west of King's Cross station. Furthermore,

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/flyers/contract.asp?ID=5051

mentions recent CTRL work being carried out in connection with the Fleet
Sewer ... so I think you may well have identified the photo!

Yeh the white tiles suggest it might be a sewer and it is fenced off as
if it is deep.

http://m33p.be/gallery/u_t_l/Dsc02867a



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"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:9965a7ddbe9c818b6bb25a4b0207a05c.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...

Could it be the Fleet River? I cannot find a link for its course at that
point but it is certainly very close and travels N-S.

Thanks for that, Roy (and all the others). However, I don't think it can be
correct as it would mean that the Fleet River was at street level and I
don't believe it was/is. In fact, it can't be, because it passes underneath
the Regents Canal. I went to a talk on the workings involved with all the
alterations at Kings Cross/St Pancras and apparently the Fleet River has
been diverted through part of one of the old tunnels which used to connect
the widened lines with the suburban lines going north. I believe it used to
run down the present alignment of York Way. It couldn't have been the
westernmost one as that was being used by Thameslink until very recently and
would be close to the area in question but below ground. The other two
runnels came up either side of Kings Cross and I believe they used to carry
the Moorgate trains which now go via Finsbury Park/Drayton Park.
I only wish you had been right !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message
ilgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

Thanks, Robert, unfortunately no positive identification made despite
my
message being on three newsgroups. I can't believe that nobody knows !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Could it be the Fleet River? I cannot find a link for its course at that
point but it is certainly very close and travels N-S.

That's a very good suggestion. "London Under London" records that the
Fleet flows beneath Pancras Way and the sketch map shows it passing to
the west of King's Cross station. Furthermore,

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/flyers/contract.asp?ID=5051

mentions recent CTRL work being carried out in connection with the Fleet
Sewer ... so I think you may well have identified the photo!

--
Paul Terry

Pancras Road is on the east of the St Pancras trainshed whereas the place I
photographed is on the west, more than 100 yards away so I don't think
that's it. Thanks anyway.
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

I only wish you had been right !!
Cheerz,
Baz

You've got me at it now, what about the two tunnels in the wall facing
us? I've put together a scrapbook of maps and images which may help
including an 1827 map suggesting that The Fleet had been culverted even
then.

May take a few seconds to download:

http://www.stpancras.150m.com

Something this bloody enormous has *got* to be traceable. I'll be around
there on Thursday, I'll try and pop over and have a look at it.



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Identification needed, please
 

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:9965a7ddbe9c818b6bb25a4b0207a05c.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...

Could it be the Fleet River? I cannot find a link for its course at that
point but it is certainly very close and travels N-S.

Thanks for that, Roy (and all the others). However, I don't think it can be
correct as it would mean that the Fleet River was at street level and I
don't believe it was/is.

Most rivers at the point where they approach a bridging/fording point
are a little below street level...

In fact, it can't be, because it passes underneath
the Regents Canal.

....whereas canals are artificially levelled, so I don't think you can
read too much into that.

I went to a talk on the workings involved with all the
alterations at Kings Cross/St Pancras and apparently the Fleet River has
been diverted through part of one of the old tunnels which used to connect
the widened lines with the suburban lines going north. I believe it used to
run down the present alignment of York Way. It couldn't have been the
westernmost one as that was being used by Thameslink until very recently and
would be close to the area in question but below ground. The other two
runnels came up either side of Kings Cross and I believe they used to carry
the Moorgate trains which now go via Finsbury Park/Drayton Park.
I only wish you had been right !!
Cheerz,
Baz

Using the info in your other thread I'm going to mark the map in my
scrapbook (hope you've got Broadband because it is a big image), perhaps
you could check the location and see if I've got it right.

http://www.stpancras.150m.com

Another tunnel scything through Kings Cross (W to E unfortunately) is
Bazalgette's Middle Level Sewer on it's way overland to Beckton, I dont
suppose it is connected to The Fleet so one must have passed over the
other.

Finally the "Crypt" in Scott's design was well named because the
platform was built over the St Pancras buriel ground which can be seen
clearly on the map of 1827.


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Identification needed, please
 

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:08bd8831597ede983b90d711fc1e1447.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...
"Marratxi" wrote in
message

I only wish you had been right !!
Cheerz,
Baz

You've got me at it now, what about the two tunnels in the wall facing
us? I've put together a scrapbook of maps and images which may help
including an 1827 map suggesting that The Fleet had been culverted even
then.

May take a few seconds to download:

http://www.stpancras.150m.com

Something this bloody enormous has *got* to be traceable. I'll be around
there on Thursday, I'll try and pop over and have a look at it.

Those two tunnels are actually folds in the sleeve of the security guard who
was trying to stop me from taking the photo. I had the camera held at arms
length above my head !!! I already investigated the Greenwood map but found
it inconclusive and so far haven't been able to find anything useful about
the line of the Fleet.
Cheerz,
Baz
P.S. Watch out for the gestapo when you go there !!
More photos now at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...stacpoole2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail1.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail3.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/13230018.jpg

Identification needed, please
 

Pancras Road is on the east of the St Pancras trainshed whereas the place
I
photographed is on the west, more than 100 yards away so I don't think
that's it. Thanks anyway.

Your original post said the "photo is of the eastern side of the St Pancras
trainshed" which probably caused some confusion. I also feel some posters
are talking about the opening in the centre back of the photo, to the right
of the dumper truck (mention was made of white tiles) whereas I assumed you
were talking about the tunnel more to the left of the photo heading away
from the camera partially obscured by the white dumper truck.

Identification needed, please
 

In message , Marratxi
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

That's a very good suggestion. "London Under London" records that the
Fleet flows beneath Pancras Way

Pancras Road is on the east of the St Pancras trainshed whereas the place I
photographed is on the west,

Doh! In your original article you said "photo is of the eastern side of
the St Pancras trainshed"!

And who mentioned Pancras Road? Pancras *Way* is to the west of the
lines into the station (as is Pancras Road beyond the station throat).

Troy Steadman has pointed out the course of the Fleet in 1827, but it
was diverted when St Pancras built, and I suspect that it is now more or
less beneath Pancras Road - i.e. it crosses to the east of the station
where Pancras Road passes under the approach tracks.

more than 100 yards away so I don't think that's it.

No, nor do I now you have clarified the position - see my other post to
this thread. Also, the Fleet was apparently diverted "into an iron pipe"
("London's Termini", Alan Jackson), which would certainly rule out the
construction in your photo.

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

In message , Marratxi
writes

More photos now at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...stacpoole2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail1.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail3.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/13230018.jpg

If, as seems likely from the above, the tunnel is basically emerging at
street level into Midland Road, it is nothing more exciting than the
back exit from the hotel - i.e. where you come out if you go through the
big arch in the west tower. This is shown in both the plans of the
station in Jackson's "London Termini" and is also visible at:

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607

(The above is a big download, but the map is sufficiently detailed to
make the location clear.)

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

"Marratxi" wrote in
message

"Troy Steadman" wrote in message
news:08bd8831597ede983b90d711fc1e1447.125090@mygat e.mailgate.org...

You've got me at it now, what about the two tunnels in the wall facing us?

Those two tunnels are actually folds in the sleeve of the security guard who
was trying to stop me from taking the photo.

Ha ha that's very funny! What about the two tunnels - not the blue ones
in the security guard's arm but the black ones in the wall beyond the
fence?

http://m33p.be/gallery/u_t_l



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Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Marratxi
writes

More photos now at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...stacpoole2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail1.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail2.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaRailways/detail3.jpg
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/13230018.jpg

If, as seems likely from the above, the tunnel is basically emerging at
street level into Midland Road, it is nothing more exciting than the
back exit from the hotel - i.e. where you come out if you go through the
big arch in the west tower. This is shown in both the plans of the
station in Jackson's "London Termini" and is also visible at:
http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607
(The above is a big download, but the map is sufficiently detailed to
make the location clear.)
Paul Terry

Sorry, no again. The archway you're referring to is at the top of a rise and
is at platform level, i.e. about 15ft above street level. It used to lead to
a long taxi ramp descending from that archway and emerging onto Midland
Road. I believe it started from the glass-covered "porch" which you can see
in detail3.jpg so "it" must go underneath the ticket hall. I have made a
major error in my initial message by saying that this thing is on the east
of the trainshed whereas it is, of course, on the left.
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

In message
ilgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes

Ha ha that's very funny! What about the two tunnels - not the blue ones
in the security guard's arm but the black ones in the wall beyond the
fence?

They're the exits from Burton's beer cellar (below the station) out to
Midland Road.

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

In message , Marratxi
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607
(The above is a big download, but the map is sufficiently detailed to
make the location clear.)
Paul Terry

Sorry, no again. The archway you're referring to is at the top of a rise and
is at platform level, i.e. about 15ft above street level.

Er, no - there is a ramp *up* to platform level from the west arch.

It used to lead to a long taxi ramp descending from that archway and
emerging onto Midland Road.

Yes. That is the structure to which I refer. Surely it is at street
level when it reaches Midland Road - or did the taxis just leap down a
precipice?

I believe it started from the glass-covered "porch" which you can see
in detail3.jpg so "it" must go underneath the ticket hall.

It descends to the west of the ticket hall.

Baz, you haven't said how your photo relates to the plan I referenced:

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607

If you just tell us that, I'm sure we will be able to understand what
you are referring to.

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Marratxi
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607
(The above is a big download, but the map is sufficiently detailed to
make the location clear.)
Paul Terry

Sorry, no again. The archway you're referring to is at the top of a rise
and
is at platform level, i.e. about 15ft above street level.

Er, no - there is a ramp *up* to platform level from the west arch.

It used to lead to a long taxi ramp descending from that archway and
emerging onto Midland Road.

Yes. That is the structure to which I refer. Surely it is at street
level when it reaches Midland Road - or did the taxis just leap down a
precipice?

I believe it started from the glass-covered "porch" which you can see
in detail3.jpg so "it" must go underneath the ticket hall.

It descends to the west of the ticket hall.

Baz, you haven't said how your photo relates to the plan I referenced:

http://www.ctrl.co.uk/photos/galleryimage.asp?ID=4607

If you just tell us that, I'm sure we will be able to understand what
you are referring to.

--
Paul Terry

Sorry, you'll find a picture at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/detail4a.jpg which will show
where I was when I took the photo (red blob) and the direction I was facing.
Does this do the trick ?
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

In message , Marratxi
writes

Sorry, you'll find a picture at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/detail4a.jpg which will show
where I was when I took the photo (red blob) and the direction I was facing.
Does this do the trick ?

Yep - the place you have marked is precisely at the foot of the exit
tunnel from the hotel.

--
Paul Terry

Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Marratxi
writes

Sorry, you'll find a picture at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/MajorcaR...s/detail4a.jpg which will show
where I was when I took the photo (red blob) and the direction I was
facing.
Does this do the trick ?

Yep - the place you have marked is precisely at the foot of the exit
tunnel from the hotel.

--
Paul Terry

Why does a hotel need an exit tunnel and why is it so big ?
Cheerz,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message
ilgate.org, Troy
Steadman writes
Ha ha that's very funny! What about the two tunnels - not the blue ones
in the security guard's arm but the black ones in the wall beyond the
fence?
They're the exits from Burton's beer cellar (below the station) out to
Midland Road.
Paul Terry

Problem solved - from the horse's mouth:-
"It is not a tunnel but a vault. As you will be aware, the station was
built above ground with the undercroft used for storage of beer from Burton
on Trent. The undercroft under the Barlow trainshed was built of wrought
iron spanning on cast iron columns between brick arched side walls. That is
the wall in the background of your photos. The ground to the west was
mostly earth fill but to the north were a series of arches rather like a
viaduct running east west from the undercroft - originally these were coal
drops. The arch that you have photographed actually forms the basement to
the original parcels offices on the west side which were located just north
of the cab road and booking hall. There were a series of interlinked vaults
under the parcels offices and you can just see the remains of the east-west
vaults behind the cut back mouth of the main vault. The south end of the
main vault terminated in the east-west dray road which accessed the main
undercroft. This has now been demolished back to the north end of the cab
road."

Thanks to you all for your help,
Baz

Identification needed, please
 

In message , Marratxi
writes

Why does a hotel need an exit tunnel and why is it so big ?

It was the main exit from the station as well as the hotel (it is part
of the roadway goes right past the famous booking hall).

I was about to write that, despite all this, I don't think this is your
tunnel (it is slightly too far west) when I saw your latest post. The
explanation that it is a vault under the parcels office ties up with the
plan of the station given in London's Termini.

--
Paul Terry