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Class 376 deployment questions
Two questions regarding the deployment of these new 5-car trains:
1) are there routes on which they will completely replace the Class 465 and 466s? 2) if so, for those routes where the platform length limits trains to eight carriages, will all current 6- and 8-car trains be replaced by 5-car trains, or can they operate 10-car trains where doors on the two rearmost carriages won't open at all stations? S R |
Class 376 deployment questions
"S R" wrote in message ... Two questions regarding the deployment of these new 5-car trains: 1) are there routes on which they will completely replace the Class 465 and 466s? 2) if so, for those routes where the platform length limits trains to eight carriages, will all current 6- and 8-car trains be replaced by 5-car trains, or can they operate 10-car trains where doors on the two rearmost carriages won't open at all stations? AIUI they will operate on Charing Cross and Cannon Street services. All platforms on these routes were extended to take 10-car trains in the 1950s, and many were further extended to 12-car length in the abortive scheme of the early 1990s. They will not normally operate on Victoria/Blackfriars routes, where many suburban platforms can still only take 8-car trains. There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. Peter |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
Class 376 deployment questions
Nick Lawford wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. |
Class 376 deployment questions
James Looker wrote in message ...
Nick Lawford wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. No one seems to have news of a drastic change in the diagrams that would keep units on specific routes. That's why they can't be kept on journeys they are best suited to. The are already doing some "semi-fasts" via Woolwich and Lewisham. |
Class 376 deployment questions
MIG wrote:
James Looker wrote in message ... Nick Lawford wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. No one seems to have news of a drastic change in the diagrams that would keep units on specific routes. That's why they can't be kept on journeys they are best suited to. The are already doing some "semi-fasts" via Woolwich and Lewisham. I seem to recall having heard talk that (somehow) these trains were to be kept off longer distance trips such as beyond Dartford, and people here (on both uk.railway and u.t.l) pointing out how dificult that would be. Have TPTB finally given up the idea of keeping them off Gillingham services and the like? Robin |
Class 376 deployment questions
I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. S R |
Class 376 deployment questions
R.C. Payne wrote:
MIG wrote: James Looker wrote in message ... Nick Lawford wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. No one seems to have news of a drastic change in the diagrams that would keep units on specific routes. That's why they can't be kept on journeys they are best suited to. The are already doing some "semi-fasts" via Woolwich and Lewisham. I seem to recall having heard talk that (somehow) these trains were to be kept off longer distance trips such as beyond Dartford, and people here (on both uk.railway and u.t.l) pointing out how dificult that would be. Have TPTB finally given up the idea of keeping them off Gillingham services and the like? Robin They are diagrammed on the 17:46 from Cannon Street to Higham (Strood when tunnel re-opens in January) every day at the moment - 2 x 5 cars. The official line is that they will run to Gravesend in off-peak but may be used on longer journeys to/from Gillingham in the peak (also Orpington off-peak, Sevenoaks in Peak). In reality seats are likely to become available at Dartford (Coastbound) or earlier if you walk through the train (easier than most) and you will get a seat from longer out if you are London bound - that is if you want one!. Chris |
Class 376 deployment questions
"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ...
MIG wrote: James Looker wrote in message ... Nick Lawford wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. No one seems to have news of a drastic change in the diagrams that would keep units on specific routes. That's why they can't be kept on journeys they are best suited to. The are already doing some "semi-fasts" via Woolwich and Lewisham. I seem to recall having heard talk that (somehow) these trains were to be kept off longer distance trips such as beyond Dartford, and people here (on both uk.railway and u.t.l) pointing out how dificult that would be. Have TPTB finally given up the idea of keeping them off Gillingham services and the like? Robin Maybe there will be a drastic change in the diagrams when they are all running, but I've certainly seen one doing Higham (would be Gillingham) to Charing Cross. I've seen them on the Hayes and Orpington lines, but it's hard to tell where they are going because, surprise surprise, the indicators are usually switched off. |
Class 376 deployment questions
"S R" wrote in message ...
I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. S R I wouldn't be at all surprised. History shows a reduction in length when new stock is introduced. I guess we can take it that the introduction of five-car units is a confirmation that we will never see the twelve-car trains for which all those platforms were extended. Maybe there has been an improvement in availability, but only in the last couple of years has the peak-hour train length finally started to increase (to a maximum of ten), after the general reduction in length when the "Networkers" were introduced. It was galling to have to stand in shorter trains when they were introduced, having gone through all that disruption to extend the platforms for the "longer Networker trains". Soon after, some twelve-car slam-door trains on Ramsgate/Margate services to Cannon Street were replaced by eight-car 365s. Did the 365s ever run in longer formations than that? I can't remember seeing one. |
Class 376 deployment questions
S R wrote:
I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. What actually is the history of the 12 car networker thing? I recall lots of platform lengthening happening at about the time the networkers were coming in, but I wasn't really paying attention at the time? What work was left undone that would have allowed 12 car trains, and what were the originally intended routes for them? Robin |
Class 376 deployment questions
R.C. Payne wrote:
S R wrote: I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. What actually is the history of the 12 car networker thing? I recall lots of platform lengthening happening at about the time the networkers were coming in, but I wasn't really paying attention at the time? What work was left undone that would have allowed 12 car trains, and what were the originally intended routes for them? Robin I still have the leaflets for the Networker launch. There is talk of power supply upgrades required (where have I heard that since), longer platforms, signaling improvements (later followed up by the Dartford resignal ling. Use of longer trains (up to 12 coach), high power mode, regenerative braking etc. Chris |
Class 376 deployment questions
"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ...
S R wrote: I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. What actually is the history of the 12 car networker thing? I recall lots of platform lengthening happening at about the time the networkers were coming in, but I wasn't really paying attention at the time? What work was left undone that would have allowed 12 car trains, and what were the originally intended routes for them? Robin I can't give a list of what work was left undone, but I remember a lot about the period. The Networkers were originally all going to be units of four. The platforms were long enough for ten-car EPBs, but the Networkers were going to have to be shorter (eight-car) if the platforms weren't extended to allow for twelve. But then three incompatible things happened. 1) The extension of all (most?) of the relevant platforms took place, requiring Charing Cross to be closed for three solid weeks at one point, and resulting in the disappearance of platform 7 at London Bridge. 2) The order was changed to include two-car 466s, which meant that there could be ten-car trains anyway. 3) The Networker trains, for a long time, were a maximum of eight cars, and for many years the average length was shorter than the EPBs had been. The main result of the extended platforms has been to give the various operators a good laugh watching people chasing short trains to the far end of the platform. |
Class 376 deployment questions
Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. Victoria/Blackfriars-Beckenham Jn/Orpington S R |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Chris Fribbins" wrote in message ... R.C. Payne wrote: MIG wrote: James Looker wrote in message ... Nick Lawford wrote: "Peter Masson" wrote in message There won't be enough 376s to displace Networkers completely from any route. There are more than enough to cover specific routes entirely. 36 units must be more than enough to cover a service such as Hayes or Dartford via Greenwich (and excluding the obvious but silly answer of Bromley North). Surely both routes are entirely served from CS/CX so the short platforms issue does not arise. I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. -- Nick Bromley North has been using the new trains and they have also been down to Orpington and Sevenoaks. The routes through Grove Park are definetly getting all new Class 376 trains within the next year. No one seems to have news of a drastic change in the diagrams that would keep units on specific routes. That's why they can't be kept on journeys they are best suited to. The are already doing some "semi-fasts" via Woolwich and Lewisham. I seem to recall having heard talk that (somehow) these trains were to be kept off longer distance trips such as beyond Dartford, and people here (on both uk.railway and u.t.l) pointing out how dificult that would be. Have TPTB finally given up the idea of keeping them off Gillingham services and the like? Robin They are diagrammed on the 17:46 from Cannon Street to Higham (Strood when tunnel re-opens in January) every day at the moment - 2 x 5 cars. The official line is that they will run to Gravesend in off-peak but may be used on longer journeys to/from Gillingham in the peak (also Orpington off-peak, Sevenoaks in Peak). In reality seats are likely to become available at Dartford (Coastbound) or earlier if you walk through the train (easier than most) and you will get a seat from longer out if you are London bound - that is if you want one!. Chris I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. Aaron ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Class 376 deployment questions
"S R" wrote in message ... I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. S R Speaking of 5-car formations, I've noticed some nice new "5 car stop" signs appearing near some of the platform monitors on these routes (surely they could just use the "6 car stop" positions anyway? Seem incredibly efficient to have started this already when there must be so many other tasks to do in tidying up SET's scruffy stations) Still no sign of toilets on my route (Sidcup line) which we were promised *before* deployment of any 376 units. Having said that, some bizarre looking 5-metre steel uprights have been embedded in the platform area of Sidcup station on the Dartford-bound platform, either side of an existing set of seats. This might be the beginning of a new structure that might be toilets? Might be completely unrelated though... Nick |
Class 376 deployment questions
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Class 376 deployment questions
Aaron Borbora wrote:
I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. There's a precedent - they run from London Bridge to Tonbridge using class 508s. -- John Ray |
Class 376 deployment questions
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:09:10 +0000, John Ray wrote:
Aaron Borbora wrote: I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. There's a precedent - they run from London Bridge to Tonbridge using class 508s. a 508 *is* a toilet! :/ |
Class 376 deployment questions
"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ... S R wrote: I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. What actually is the history of the 12 car networker thing? I recall lots of platform lengthening happening at about the time the networkers were coming in, but I wasn't really paying attention at the time? What work was left undone that would have allowed 12 car trains, and what were the originally intended routes for them? As others have mentioned, the suburban routes from Victoria and Blackfriars are limited to 8 car trains, but there is no suggestion that 376s will be diagrammed on these routes. This includes Victoria - Dartford, because of short platfroms at Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead. The abortive 12-car scheme included Charing Cross and Cannon Street to Dartford (via all routes) and Orpington. I am not sure whether it also included Dartford - Gravesend (and Gillingham?), and Orpington - Sevenoaks. It did not include Bromley North (which had already become a self-contained shuttle) or Lewisham - Hayes. AIUI it was abandoned because of a downturn in London commuting in the early 1990s because of a recession, because the works required at a few stations (Dartford, Lewisham, for example) was proving seriously difficult and expensive, because the money wasn't there for sufficient stock to run 12-car trains, and possibly because someone did some calculations and found that a power upgrade (which hadn't been budgetted) was needed. Peter |
Class 376 deployment questions
In article , Nick
writes Speaking of 5-car formations, I've noticed some nice new "5 car stop" signs appearing near some of the platform monitors on these routes (surely they could just use the "6 car stop" positions anyway? A driver of a 5-car train must stop at the "S" sign if there isn't a specific "5". Just the same as the driver of an 8 car train can't stop at the "4" sign if there isn't an "8". Some TOC managements will treat a failure to do so as a SPAD. If the right stopping place is the same a 6 car trains, then the 5 and 6 signs should be in the same place. If they aren't, there is a reason. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Class 376 deployment questions
Aaron Borbora wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 30 Nov 2004:
I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. When did you last travel on a train that had a working one? They are invariably locked out of service, in my experience - and if they *should* happen to be open, they are filthy and unusable. Cue old-ladyish mutter of "In my young day....."..... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 28 November 2004 |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message ... In article , Nick writes Speaking of 5-car formations, I've noticed some nice new "5 car stop" signs appearing near some of the platform monitors on these routes (surely they could just use the "6 car stop" positions anyway? A driver of a 5-car train must stop at the "S" sign if there isn't a specific "5". Just the same as the driver of an 8 car train can't stop at the "4" sign if there isn't an "8". Some TOC managements will treat a failure to do so as a SPAD. Well, yes, stopping an 8-car at a "4" sign is clearly not sensible, but there have often been 3, 7 and 11-car formations on the mainline SET routes and there aren't any "3", "7" or "11" signs as far as I can see, so presumably the 7-car formations stop at "8" and 11-car stop at "12" etc? Hence the logic that 5-car formations could just use "6"? snipped |
Class 376 deployment questions
In article , Mrs Redboots
writes I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? When did you last travel on a train that had a working one? About 90 minutes ago. Admittedly this was on WA"not any more, but we can make 365s work"GN. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message ... In article , Nick writes Speaking of 5-car formations, I've noticed some nice new "5 car stop" signs appearing near some of the platform monitors on these routes (surely they could just use the "6 car stop" positions anyway? A driver of a 5-car train must stop at the "S" sign if there isn't a specific "5". Just the same as the driver of an 8 car train can't stop at the "4" sign if there isn't an "8". Some TOC managements will treat a failure to do so as a SPAD. This is somewhat over the top, many places don't have stop signs, e.g. the whole of Cardiff Valley Lines. Stopping short of the sign would be worse than going past because the back of the train could be off the platform. John. |
Class 376 deployment questions
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, John Clausen wrote:
This is somewhat over the top, many places don't have stop signs, e.g. the whole of Cardiff Valley Lines. Well, if it hasn't got a stop sign, surely no driver can be accused of failing to stop at it? [1] Stopping short of the sign would be worse than going past because the back of the train could be off the platform. What sign? all the best [1] I'm reminded of a colleague who received an official "opportunity to pay a fixed penalty" for failing to stop at a red traffic light at the junction of X road and Y street. He couldn't recall ever having been there, but he went and looked, and found that there were no traffic lights at that junction. |
Class 376 deployment questions
Mrs Redboots wrote in message ...
Aaron Borbora wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 30 Nov 2004: I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. When did you last travel on a train that had a working one? They are invariably locked out of service, in my experience - and if they *should* happen to be open, they are filthy and unusable. Cue old-ladyish mutter of "In my young day....."..... Not on South Eastern Networkers for a long time, but to be fair, they never had them on the EPBs that ran to Gillingham. Now that they work less and less, the stink isn't so bad. You can usually get a seat near the toilets because people assume that they stink and stay away. |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ... S R wrote: I can't see any reason why they'd diagram in such a way to be 376 only, but it could be done in theory, which is why I assume the OP asked the question. My reason for asking was concern that routes limited by platform length to 8-car trains would see all their peak-period 6- and 8-car trains replaced by 5-car trains. Which stations/routes are restricted to 8 cars? I might have been sensible to have designed the 376s with selective door opening to permit 10 car working to these stations. What actually is the history of the 12 car networker thing? I recall lots of platform lengthening happening at about the time the networkers were coming in, but I wasn't really paying attention at the time? What work was left undone that would have allowed 12 car trains, and what were the originally intended routes for them? As others have mentioned, the suburban routes from Victoria and Blackfriars are limited to 8 car trains, but there is no suggestion that 376s will be diagrammed on these routes. This includes Victoria - Dartford, because of short platfroms at Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead. The abortive 12-car scheme included Charing Cross and Cannon Street to Dartford (via all routes) and Orpington. I am not sure whether it also included Dartford - Gravesend (and Gillingham?), and Orpington - Sevenoaks. It did not include Bromley North (which had already become a self-contained shuttle) or Lewisham - Hayes. AIUI it was abandoned because of a downturn in London commuting in the early 1990s because of a recession, because the works required at a few stations (Dartford, Lewisham, for example) was proving seriously difficult and expensive, because the money wasn't there for sufficient stock to run 12-car trains, and possibly because someone did some calculations and found that a power upgrade (which hadn't been budgetted) was needed. Peter What was the problem with Lewisham? The platforms were extended and the signals were moved as far as I can remember. Passengers at platform 4 regularly have to chase the trains almost all the way to Blackheath, despite the main entrance and all the information displays being on the section of platform which is no longer used. |
Class 376 deployment questions
"MIG" wrote in message om... What was the problem with Lewisham? The platforms were extended and the signals were moved as far as I can remember. Your memory may well be better than mine. ISTR early on in the programme that Lewisham was one of the 'difficult' stations, and I had sort of assumed that it was one they never got round to. Did they extend all four platforms? Peter |
Class 376 deployment questions
In article ,
Aaron Borbora wrote: I can't believe this - are they seriously planning to run to Gillingham on stock with no toilets? This is just absured, it really is. Such as 2x 4EPB, for instance ... Nick -- http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself |
Class 376 deployment questions
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"MIG" wrote in message om... What was the problem with Lewisham? The platforms were extended and the signals were moved as far as I can remember. Your memory may well be better than mine. ISTR early on in the programme that Lewisham was one of the 'difficult' stations, and I had sort of assumed that it was one they never got round to. Did they extend all four platforms? Peter I'm pretty sure they did, but maybe they didn't move all the signals etc. Next time I'm there with my walking boots on ... |
Class 376 deployment questions
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Class 376 deployment questions
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