East London Line Project Questions
 

Just had a look at the website: http://www.ellp.co.uk/index.htm

It doesn't appear to have changed much in the last few months, has there
been any signs of real activity on the ground yet? Always seems to be a
vastly overpriced project to me, especially the phase 1 stuff.

Which NR TOC will be absorbing the line into its empire, has this been
formally decided yet?

Are SWT's 458s confirmed as destined for this service - or is this just
rumoured?

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help with a
'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ and
up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for this
eventuality without huge changes?

Paul

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help with
a
'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ
and
up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for this
eventuality without huge changes?

Trains would run from the ELL via the new spur from Surrey Quays to the SLL
at Old Kent Road, then via the SLL to Wandsworth Road, then Factory
Junction, Culver Road Junction, to Clapham Junction platforms 1 (which would
be reinstated) and 2. Platform 2 is currently used by the Kensington Olympia
and Willesden Junction shuttle - it was also used a few years back when the
London Bridge - Victoria trains were diverted there (by the above route)
when the route through Battersea Park was temporarily unavailable.

Peter

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help with
a
'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ
and
up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for this
eventuality without huge changes?

Trains would run from the ELL via the new spur from Surrey Quays to the
SLL
at Old Kent Road, then via the SLL to Wandsworth Road, then Factory
Junction, Culver Road Junction, to Clapham Junction platforms 1 (which
would
be reinstated) and 2. Platform 2 is currently used by the Kensington
Olympia
and Willesden Junction shuttle - it was also used a few years back when
the
London Bridge - Victoria trains were diverted there (by the above route)
when the route through Battersea Park was temporarily unavailable.

Peter

So at CJ it might logically operate with one platform for eastbound and one
for westbound trains?

Paul

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Paul Scott" a écrit dans le message de
...

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help
with
a
'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ
and
up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for
this
eventuality without huge changes?

Trains would run from the ELL via the new spur from Surrey Quays to the
SLL
at Old Kent Road, then via the SLL to Wandsworth Road, then Factory
Junction, Culver Road Junction, to Clapham Junction platforms 1 (which
would
be reinstated) and 2. Platform 2 is currently used by the Kensington
Olympia
and Willesden Junction shuttle - it was also used a few years back when
the
London Bridge - Victoria trains were diverted there (by the above route)
when the route through Battersea Park was temporarily unavailable.

Peter

So at CJ it might logically operate with one platform for eastbound and
one
for westbound trains?

ISTM that in that case you would need to be very careful how to express this
to the general public; a clearer terminology would be 'trains for north
London via the West London line' vs 'trains for the East London Line via
south London' (NB it is standard paractice not to identify platforms by
reference to where arriving trains have probably come from).

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in
:

Just had a look at the website: http://www.ellp.co.uk/index.htm

It doesn't appear to have changed much in the last few months, has
there been any signs of real activity on the ground yet?


Just seen some new construction gear on the track bed near me in Dalston -
at last something seems to be happening.

M.

East London Line Project Questions
 

Paul Scott wrote:
Just had a look at the website: http://www.ellp.co.uk/index.htm

It doesn't appear to have changed much in the last few months, has there
been any signs of real activity on the ground yet? Always seems to be a
vastly overpriced project to me, especially the phase 1 stuff.

Which NR TOC will be absorbing the line into its empire, has this been
formally decided yet?

Not decided, but a new franchise may be created, absorbing Silverlink's
Metro services (whether that includes Watford locals is uncertain). Such
a franchise would be under strict control of TfL, in a similar way to
Serco's DLR operations.

Are SWT's 458s confirmed as destined for this service - or is this just
rumoured?

Rumoured. No particularly stock is definitely destined for it yet.

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help with a
'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ and
up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for this
eventuality without huge changes?

As another poster said, the platforms would be adjacent; however,
whether services actually run through from Wandsworth Road - CJ -
Imperial Wharf (& v.v.) is debatable; for reliability's sake, an
Orbirail service may just operate CJ - Willesden - Dalston - Peckham -
CJ and return. The Circle line is an indicator that circular routes
crossing a variety of junctions perform poorly, as without a proper
terminus it is difficult for them to regain lost time.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

East London Line Project Questions
 

If they reversed in Clapham Junction would it be possible to have a train
"step back" to solve late running problems? There are sidings to the west of
CJ platform 1/2. or at least room for reinstatement.

JG.


As another poster said, the platforms would be adjacent; however, whether
services actually run through from Wandsworth Road - CJ - Imperial Wharf
(& v.v.) is debatable; for reliability's sake, an Orbirail service may
just operate CJ - Willesden - Dalston - Peckham - CJ and return. The
Circle line is an indicator that circular routes crossing a variety of
junctions perform poorly, as without a proper terminus it is difficult for
them to regain lost time.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

As another poster said, the platforms would be adjacent;
however, whether services actually run through from
Wandsworth Road - CJ - Imperial Wharf (& v.v.) is debatable;
for reliability's sake, an Orbirail service may just operate
CJ - Willesden - Dalston - Peckham - CJ and return.
The Circle line is an indicator that circular routes crossing
a variety of junctions perform poorly, as without a proper
terminus it is difficult for them to regain lost time.

The reliability depends on the time allowed at CJ, not on whether trains
return whence they came or proceed around again. (Actually there would be an
impact on reliability of circular trains caused by crossing each other's
path near Clapham Junction, but that would be minor.)

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
Paul Scott wrote:
Just had a look at the website: http://www.ellp.co.uk/index.htm

There is a mention that extending towards Clapham Junction will help with
a 'future orbital rail project', presumably this will mean reversal at CJ
and up via Kensington Olympia etc? Does the track layout at CJ allow for
this eventuality without huge changes?

As another poster said, the platforms would be adjacent; however, whether
services actually run through from Wandsworth Road - CJ - Imperial Wharf
(& v.v.) is debatable; for reliability's sake, an Orbirail service may
just operate CJ - Willesden - Dalston - Peckham - CJ and return. The
Circle line is an indicator that circular routes crossing a variety of
junctions perform poorly, as without a proper terminus it is difficult for
them to regain lost time.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Do any existing services follow the basic route around south London, and
are there paths for the Phase 2 service?

Hasn't it been suggested that the Circle line could be binned without much
effect on passengers, but major improvements to the Met & District
reliability?

Paul

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

Do any existing services follow the basic route around south London, and
are there paths for the Phase 2 service?

I would not be surprised if the ELL - Clapham Junction via Peckham Rye
service replaced the London Bridge - Victoria via Denmark Hill trains. The
SRA are proposing that the Dartford lines to Victoria service should be
increased to 4 tph (2tph via Bexleyheath and 2 tph from Sidcup), and it
would not be difficult for these to call at Clapham High Street and
Wandsworth Road (and Battersea Park if required) to replace the local
service into Victoria.

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

Peter

East London Line Project Questions
 

John Rowland wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

As another poster said, the platforms would be adjacent;
however, whether services actually run through from
Wandsworth Road - CJ - Imperial Wharf (& v.v.) is debatable;
for reliability's sake, an Orbirail service may just operate
CJ - Willesden - Dalston - Peckham - CJ and return.
The Circle line is an indicator that circular routes crossing
a variety of junctions perform poorly, as without a proper
terminus it is difficult for them to regain lost time.


The reliability depends on the time allowed at CJ, not on whether trains
return whence they came or proceed around again. (Actually there would be an
impact on reliability of circular trains caused by crossing each other's
path near Clapham Junction, but that would be minor.)

I meant that you can give them X minutes' turnaround at CJ, so if
they're a bit late arriving then they can still leave on time - whereas
on the Circle line they have some time at Aldgate but it doesn't seem to
be enough to counter much late running.

Publicising it as a "true" circular service, through from the SLL to the
WLL, whilst allowing X5 minutes at CJ, would be annoying to passengers
- much like existing waits at Aldgate or (until last week) on the
Heathrow loop. However, I accept that the direction the train departs in
doesn't really matter.

A connection-based approach might allow a relief time at CJ with faster
journeys for through journeys from West to South or vice versa. For
example, the following strategy would allow 7.5 mins' relief at CJ as
part of a 10 min service frequency, whilst only having a 2.5 min wait at
CJ for through passengers:

SLL - Platform 1 (0.0min)
Platform 2 - WLL (2.5min) Train 1
WLL - Platform 2 (5.0min) Train 2
Platform 1 - SLL (7.5min)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

East London Line Project Questions
 

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction a junction when they are
at it..... it seems silly to have a station called a "Junction" when it
isn't, but probably could be rather easily.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 2 January 2005

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction
a junction when they are at it..... it seems silly to
have a station called a "Junction" when it isn't,

That would be the main point of the business case

but probably could be rather easily.

The line to Denmark Hill is incredibly curved, and the line to Brixton has
no regular service. I don't know whether the station could be relocated
further north where both lines are straight.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes.

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

East Brixton closed in 1976. I can see what you meant about it falling down
from the pics on this website...
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml

Nick P

East London Line Project Questions
 

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:31:57 +0000, Mrs Redboots
wrote:

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction a junction when they are
at it..... it seems silly to have a station called a "Junction" when it
isn't, but probably could be rather easily.

Loughborough Junction was a junction in years gone by. The platforms
on the Eastern curve are still in stitu.

PRAR
--
http://www.i.am/prar/
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. Dick Cavett
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
NB Anti-spam measures in force
- If you must email me use the Reply to address and not

East London Line Project Questions
 

In article ,
John Rowland wrote:
The line to Denmark Hill is incredibly curved, and the line to Brixton has
no regular service. I don't know whether the station could be relocated
further north where both lines are straight.

It must've been a proper junction once - the platforms are still there! (To
a lesser or greater extent :) )

Dave
--
Email: MSN Messenger:

East London Line Project Questions
 

John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction
a junction when they are at it..... it seems silly to
have a station called a "Junction" when it isn't,

That would be the main point of the business case

but probably could be rather easily.

The line to Denmark Hill is incredibly curved, and the line to Brixton has
no regular service. I don't know whether the station could be relocated
further north where both lines are straight.

Probably not, since where it is at the moment is only just off the A23,
so very convenient for shoppers, the market, etc. The only thing is,
it's so very horrible to access - up an unwatched flight of stairs where
junkies congregate to smoke crack, and alcoholics to drink and get rid
of the surplus... yuck.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 2 January 2005

East London Line Project Questions
 

PRAR wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:31:57 +0000, Mrs Redboots
wrote:

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction a junction when they are
at it..... it seems silly to have a station called a "Junction" when it
isn't, but probably could be rather easily.

Loughborough Junction was a junction in years gone by. The platforms
on the Eastern curve are still in stitu.

I know, which is why they ought to reinstate it!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 2 January 2005

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message
...

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms
on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done
ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't
been
closed then it would have fallen down).

East Brixton closed in 1976. I can see what you meant about it falling
down
from the pics on this website...
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml

The map extract on that site is a reminder that Loughborough Junction once
had platforms on all three routes, and Brixton once had platforms on the
Catford Loop as well as the Kent House route. The bronze statues of local
people on the platfroms at Brixton include one who is waiting in vain for a
train to come in from Denmark Hill.

Peter

East London Line Project Questions
 

"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:
"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
...

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction
a junction when they are at it..... it seems silly to
have a station called a "Junction" when it isn't,

I don't know whether the station could be relocated
further north where both lines are straight.

it's so very horrible to access - up an unwatched flight
of stairs where junkies congregate to smoke crack,
and alcoholics to drink and get rid of the surplus... yuck.

You could solve that by relocating it further northward... to Clerkenwell!

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

East London Line Project Questions
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 16 Jan 2005:

What are needed, and I haven't seen any recent proposals, are platforms on
the Atlantic Lines at Brixton - it really is daft that South London Line
trains sail above the top of Brixton without stopping, and have done ever
since East Brixton station was closed in the 1960s (and if it hadn't been
closed then it would have fallen down).

Which would be better... adding platfors on the Atlantic Lines? Or
adding them on the line that's currently used (directly above the
existing station)?

And why don't they make Loughborough Junction a junction when they are
at it..... it seems silly to have a station called a "Junction" when it
isn't, but probably could be rather easily.

Just because the diverging trains don't actually stop there doesn't mean
it's not a junction!

Would there be the demand to make trains on the Eastern Curve stop? ISTR
Loughborough Junction only had a very limited service until recently.