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New victoria line trains
There was a short piece on BBC london news on TV last night about
the new vic line trains and an interview with some bod at (I think) Bombardier. Anyway , turns out that it looks like the prototypes at least will have less seating (quelle surprise) and a lot of what seating is left will be flip up so theres room for all these mythical wheelchair bound passengers we keep hearing about but no one has ever actually seen. Wonderful. So not only will more people have to stand but the ones sitting will have a much less comfortable journey too. Well theres progress for you. Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. B2003 |
New victoria line trains
Boltar wrote:
There was a short piece on BBC london news on TV last night about the new vic line trains and an interview with some bod at (I think) Bombardier. Anyway , turns out that it looks like the prototypes at least will have less seating (quelle surprise) and a lot of what seating is left will be flip up so theres room for all these mythical wheelchair bound passengers we keep hearing about but no one has ever actually seen. Wonderful. So not only will more people have to stand but the ones sitting will have a much less comfortable journey too. Well theres progress for you. Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. In Paris, the tip-up seats[1] work very well. They have mostly normal seating, with the tip-ups near the doors, the intention being that when the train is not too busy there is plenty of seating, but that when it gets busy those people will stand up, enabling more people to fit in the carriage. When I say it works very well, I mean that as soon as it gets busy, people immediately stand up and make room for others. As I am sure you know, they have them here on the Northern Line now but they don't work very well at all, as people are just too selfish to let anyone else on once they are on the train and comfortable. (Yet, they will moan if they can't actually get on in the first place.) Same problem with the "priority luggage" areas on Piccadilly trains - people quite rightly stand in them when they can, yet make no attempt to move if someone gets on with a large suitcase, which they are then forced to leave in the middle of the carriage, thus getting in the way of everyone else. [1] and are called "strapontins" which sounds rude and always makes me smile :-) |
New victoria line trains
On 9 Feb 2005 01:10:42 -0800, "Boltar" wrote:
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. I suspect that the seating arrangement will be similar to the Northern and Piccadilly line trains, both of which I recall are provided with tip-ups in places. The reduction will be by way of the removal of the transverse seats, which has already happened on other deep-level lines because they aren't wide enough for two average people, and don't have enough legroom for anything other than midgets to sit opposite one another. The longitudinal layout has proven itself on other lines - I doubt that cost has a lot to do with it. The availability of a place to put luggage or a wheelchair without blocking the vestibules (where the train isn't crush loaded of course) seems a sensible idea, and again is helpful in the Northern and Picc trains. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
New victoria line trains
Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro, there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours or when the train is busy, so that there is more room for standing passengers. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
New victoria line trains
Boltar wrote:
Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. IMO flip up seats are more expensive than normal fixed seats - they move and hence need more maintenance, they require more spares to be kept vs. having all fixed seats, and they require more space - you can't house equipment under them. A cheaper option would be perch seats, which one leans against. The Jubilee 1996 stock has these in place of the Northern 1995's flip ups, which often seem to have broken springs and don't return to upright. Dominic |
New victoria line trains
Neil Williams wrote: I suspect that the seating arrangement will be similar to the Northern and Piccadilly line trains, both of which I recall are provided with tip-ups in places. From the computer sim images they showed it looked like there'd be a lot more flip ups than on the northern (theres none on the picc). The reduction will be by way of the removal of the transverse seats, which has already happened on other deep-level lines because they aren't wide enough for two average people, and don't have enough legroom for anything other than midgets to sit opposite one another. True , they are narrow , but small people and kids can sit happily on them and larger people choose to stand. With less seats they both get to stand. They also replaced the transverse seats on the C stock and replaced them with longitudinal seats which seemed to be a child sized profile which no one can sit comfortably in. The longitudinal layout has proven itself on other lines - I doubt that cost has a lot to do with it. The availability of a place to put luggage or a wheelchair without blocking the vestibules (where the train isn't crush loaded of course) seems a sensible idea, and again is helpful in the Northern and Picc trains. A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system. B2003 |
New victoria line trains
Mrs Redboots wrote:
Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005: Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro, there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours or when the train is busy and, importantly, people *do*!!! They also let people off first before getting on; when on, stand aside to let people off; sometimes even step off temporarily to let people off! And they do all this with no announcements! How different to here, where the same old mantra is repeated 6 times at almost every station, and is routinely ignored. Contrary to stereotype, the Parisian commuter is a much more considerate being than the London one. |
New victoria line trains
A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system. There are very few wheelchair users on the tube, but I have certainly seen more than that, as I am on the Jubilee line extension, about the only part of the tube that is actually wheelchair accessible. There aren't any accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at present. But there are plans for several major station reconstructions which will include disabled access, some of which will be on the Victoria line, so the space might be more useful in the future that it would be now, and remember that the trains won't be delivered for several years yet and should last a generation, so in the lifetime of the trains I would think many more parts of the tube will be accessible. Personally I fully support the improvements in accessibility, wherever it is economic to do so; while I am able bodied, some of the lifts on the Jubilee line are well-used by many for whom steps are a pain without actually being disabled (the elderly, those with heavy luggage or children in prams etc.) I have even had to queue for the lifts at Green Park when going to and from Heathrow with a suitcase due to the number of people changing trains with luggage! |
New victoria line trains
Boltar wrote: political correctness Taliban Ooh, triple bonus points, thanks! -- Larry Lard Replies to group please |
New victoria line trains
Tony Wilson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:
There aren't any accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at present. They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users. Personally I fully support the improvements in accessibility, wherever it is economic to do so; while I am able bodied, some of the lifts on the Jubilee line are well-used by many for whom steps are a pain without actually being disabled (the elderly, those with heavy luggage or children in prams etc.) I have even had to queue for the lifts at Green Park when going to and from Heathrow with a suitcase due to the number of people changing trains with luggage! The lifts on the DLR (at least, at East India which I was using regularly at one stage), were marked with both a wheelchair and a pushchair icon. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos |
New victoria line trains
In message , Mrs Redboots
writes They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users. Tottenham Hale. Tottenham Hale is the only station on the Victoria line that currently has wheelchair access - it is difficult to believe it gets much use! -- Paul Terry |
New victoria line trains
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:37:23 -0000, "Tony Wilson" a@a wrote:
A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system. There are very few wheelchair users on the tube, but I have certainly seen more than that, as I am on the Jubilee line extension, about the only part of the tube that is actually wheelchair accessible. There aren't any accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at present. Incorrect - Tottenham Hale has a lift access from ticket hall to platform level while there are ramps at street level to get people into the ticket hall itself. Brixton is also getting a lift as part of its rebuild - not sure about street into the ticket hall as I have not been to Brixton for a long time but I would imagine this is being catered for as the local authority would not have granted consent to the works. Whether people can get from platform into the train is a separate issue and there is no level access across that gap with the current Vic Line stock. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
New victoria line trains
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:40:06 +0000, Dave Newt
wrote: Mrs Redboots wrote: They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro, there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours or when the train is busy and, importantly, people *do*!!! They also let people off first before getting on; when on, stand aside to let people off; sometimes even step off temporarily to let people off! And they do all this with no announcements! I think this is largely a self enforcing cultural thing. The trains have had such seats for so long and the "rules" are so well understood that it is accepted as decent behaviour. How different to here, where the same old mantra is repeated 6 times at almost every station, and is routinely ignored. Well yes but I have to say that the constant exhortations to "do this, do that, breath in, breath out, this line is running, this one isn't, don't leave your bag" drive me crazy even though there are good reasons for making the announcements. Some stations achieve a balance but the odd one doesn't and a wait of more than two minutes can mean you hear a stream of noise over and over again. Oh and if the new Vic Line trains are to have fewer seats than now then there will be even bigger fights to push onto the trains to get a seat. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
New victoria line trains
Boltar wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: I suspect that the seating arrangement will be similar to the Northern and Piccadilly line trains, both of which I recall are provided with tip-ups in places. From the computer sim images they showed it looked like there'd be a lot more flip ups than on the northern (theres none on the picc). The reduction will be by way of the removal of the transverse seats, which has already happened on other deep-level lines because they aren't wide enough for two average people, and don't have enough legroom for anything other than midgets to sit opposite one another. True , they are narrow , but small people and kids can sit happily on them and larger people choose to stand. With less seats they both get to stand. They also replaced the transverse seats on the C stock and replaced them with longitudinal seats which seemed to be a child sized profile which no one can sit comfortably in. I find C stock immensely more comfortable than anything with transverse seats. The longitudinal layout has proven itself on other lines - I doubt that cost has a lot to do with it. The availability of a place to put luggage or a wheelchair without blocking the vestibules (where the train isn't crush loaded of course) seems a sensible idea, and again is helpful in the Northern and Picc trains. A lot of people with luggage if they're getting on a crowded train don't bother squeezing all the way through to put their luggage in the correct place , they just dump it where they stand. And despite what the political correctness Taliban would have us believe , sod all wheelchair users ever use the tube. Certainly I don't ever remember seeing more than 2 of them in 10 years of commuting on the system. They won't use it if they can't. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
New victoria line trains
Mrs Redboots wrote:
Tony Wilson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005: There aren't any accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at present. They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users. Personally I fully support the improvements in accessibility, wherever it is economic to do so; while I am able bodied, some of the lifts on the Jubilee line are well-used by many for whom steps are a pain without actually being disabled (the elderly, those with heavy luggage or children in prams etc.) I have even had to queue for the lifts at Green Park when going to and from Heathrow with a suitcase due to the number of people changing trains with luggage! The lifts on the DLR (at least, at East India which I was using regularly at one stage), were marked with both a wheelchair and a pushchair icon. As is the step-free interchange between the Jubilee and other lines at Green Park. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
New victoria line trains
In article , Paul Terry
writes They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users. Tottenham Hale. Tottenham Hale is the only station on the Victoria line that currently has wheelchair access - it is difficult to believe it gets much use! However, the Victoria Line has lots of cross-platform interchange, and there are other stations you can reach that way. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:40:06 +0000, Dave Newt wrote: How different to here, where the same old mantra is repeated 6 times at almost every station, and is routinely ignored. Well yes but I have to say that the constant exhortations to "do this, do that, breath in, breath out, this line is running, this one isn't, don't leave your bag" drive me crazy even though there are good reasons for making the announcements. There are only good reasons if the announcements are effective. Since there is, as you say, a constant stream of the damned things, it seems to me very unlikely that they are effective, since people just switch off or get irritated with them. Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? (Though I realise that if a station supervisor sees on his TV monitors someone smoking or walking away from their baggage, a one-off targeted announcement may be useful.) Similarly, has there been any research into comparative dwell times at stations which do or don't have "closing doors" announcements? Since all trains have audible warnings of closing doors (if you count D stock hissing sounds as such), and it's hardly a surprise that the doors have to close before the train departs, I can't believe that the announcements do much good. If they were just "mind the doors" instead of this nonsense about the train being ready to depart, which it plainly isn't with all the doors open, it would be less annoying. Some stations achieve a balance but the odd one doesn't and a wait of more than two minutes can mean you hear a stream of noise over and over again. Agreed. Hearing more than once that there is a "good service" while waiting for your train is particularly irritating. Or at Leicester Square last night awaiting a westbound Piccadilly: "There is a good service on the Northern line". The Paris Metro answer is to display network-wide service disruption details on a monitor as you enter the station, and I find this much more sensible. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Richard J. wrote:
Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. -- Michael Hoffman |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Richard J. wrote: all trains have audible warnings of closing doors (if you count D stock hissing sounds as such), and it's hardly a surprise that the doors have The central line trains could be improved in this regard. Having the beep/squeal go after the doors have started to close (and they close quite fast) seems a curious design decision to me. I'm surprised they haven't changed it by now. to close before the train departs, I can't believe that the announcements do much good. If they were just "mind the doors" instead of this nonsense about the train being ready to depart, which it plainly isn't with all the doors open, it would be less annoying. Thing is , 99% of people know to get out of the way of the doors when they're closing and don't need to be told anyway. Its the other dimwitted 1% who can't seem to grasp the fact that the doors can't close with their fat arses or overstuffed backpacks in the way who are the problem and they obviously don't listen to the announcements anyway. B2003 |
New victoria line trains
In message , Dave Newt
writes Contrary to stereotype, the Parisian commuter is a much more considerate being than the London one. I would say that the Parisian *metro* commuter is much more considerate than the London Underground one. Parisian *bus* commuters are, in my experience, much worse. (Which is saying something these days!) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Richard J. wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:40:06 +0000, Dave Newt wrote: Some stations achieve a balance but the odd one doesn't and a wait of more than two minutes can mean you hear a stream of noise over and over again. Agreed. Hearing more than once that there is a "good service" while waiting for your train is particularly irritating. Or at Leicester Square last night awaiting a westbound Piccadilly: "There is a good service on the Northern line". The Paris Metro answer is to display network-wide service disruption details on a monitor as you enter the station, and I find this much more sensible. That is done to some extent at places like Baker Street and Notting Hill Gate where there is a large LED display showing the status of each line, although an actual disruption map would be more useful to those unfamiliar with the network. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
New victoria line trains
On 9 Feb 2005 01:10:42 -0800, "Boltar" wrote:
There was a short piece on BBC london news on TV last night about the new vic line trains and an interview with some bod at (I think) Bombardier. Anyway , turns out that it looks like the prototypes at least will have less seating (quelle surprise) and a lot of what seating is left will be flip up so theres room for all these mythical wheelchair bound passengers we keep hearing about but no one has ever actually seen. The reason we never see wheelchair passengers is because so few stations are step-free, and the ones with lifts usually have the out-of-order type of lifts. It's bad enough try to get a push-chair around... -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail? |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:23:11 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote: Richard J. wrote: Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:19:56 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:40:06 +0000, Dave Newt wrote: How different to here, where the same old mantra is repeated 6 times at almost every station, and is routinely ignored. Well yes but I have to say that the constant exhortations to "do this, do that, breath in, breath out, this line is running, this one isn't, don't leave your bag" drive me crazy even though there are good reasons for making the announcements. There are only good reasons if the announcements are effective. Since there is, as you say, a constant stream of the damned things, it seems to me very unlikely that they are effective, since people just switch off or get irritated with them. Yes I would agree with this. If things have gone wrong then you need good, timely, helpful and accurate information. Too much of the time that does not happen. Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? (Though I realise that if a station supervisor sees on his TV monitors someone smoking or walking away from their baggage, a one-off targeted announcement may be useful.) The luggage issue is related to the security rating applied to the LU network. Advice has to be given in order to keep disruption to a minimum because if stuff is left behind then we have to close stations or interrupt the service. The smoking aspect these days is more likely to be triggered by someone being observed as you suggest above. Similarly, has there been any research into comparative dwell times at stations which do or don't have "closing doors" announcements? Station dwell time is measured and the whole issue of the management of train arrivals and departures was the subject of a lot of research to support the decision to employ more people and make the announcements. We don't have the sophisticated signalling and control systems that the Paris Metro has which counts down for the drivers at each station and advises when to sound buzzers etc. Therefore we use people to do that and while some announcements are condescending and make we wish to scream I think the overall effect of providing a more consistent spacing of trains is genuine and beneficial. If the service has completely collapsed then the role changes to one of crowd management and information provision. There is also the reassurance / personal security aspect of having staff on the platforms which we know customers value. There is therefore a business case for having these people around. Some stations achieve a balance but the odd one doesn't and a wait of more than two minutes can mean you hear a stream of noise over and over again. Agreed. Hearing more than once that there is a "good service" while waiting for your train is particularly irritating. Or at Leicester Square last night awaiting a westbound Piccadilly: "There is a good service on the Northern line". As I use Leicester Square every day I hear this all the time. I usually hear the Northern Line announcement just as a train leaves and the next one is 5 minutes away. I'm afraid I consider that to be an appalling level of service for Central London when everywhere else has a train every 2-3 mins. The announcement just makes me think the opposite to what it is telling me. The Paris Metro answer is to display network-wide service disruption details on a monitor as you enter the station, and I find this much more sensible. There is work going on with this. We have a "heartbeat" display on the Intranet at work which is now very good and has a very regular update facility. We also have "Tracker" which shows where the trains are and on the recently enhanced version you can click on a station and see a big list of the next 20 trains or so and how long it will take to get there. On the Jubilee Line it even includes those trains which are still heading west to Stratford if you click to see the e/b list at Canary Wharf for example. Not sure when this will be publicly available but I believe the intention is to provide something via the Tube website in a similar vein to that for DLR. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:23:11 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote: Richard J. wrote: Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. Freeze! Put your hands on your head and step AWAY from the fallacy! It is a security and operational issue, and LU do of course have to do something about it. However, those announcements are only "doing something" if they *work*, and the contention being bandied about is that they don't. As has been pointed out, the kind of person (which might be normal people in a certain state of mind) who forgets their baggage is probably not going to be much affected by the announcements. Has this been tested empirically? tom -- Don't trust the laws of men. Trust the laws of mathematics. |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:23:11 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote: Richard J. wrote: Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. Freeze! Put your hands on your head and step AWAY from the fallacy! It is a security and operational issue, and LU do of course have to do something about it. However, those announcements are only "doing something" if they *work*, and the contention being bandied about is that they don't. As has been pointed out, the kind of person (which might be normal people in a certain state of mind) who forgets their baggage is probably not going to be much affected by the announcements. Has this been tested empirically? What alternative is there? Get everyone to check in their personal belongings item-by-item on entry to the system, store it on an Oyster card and then check them out upon exit? It's inevitable that forgetful people will... erm... forget. Making announcements might not affect some people, but probably will affect others. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:19:56 GMT, "Richard J." wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: (snip) The Paris Metro answer is to display network-wide service disruption details on a monitor as you enter the station, and I find this much more sensible. There is work going on with this. We have a "heartbeat" display on the Intranet at work which is now very good and has a very regular update facility. We also have "Tracker" which shows where the trains are and on the recently enhanced version you can click on a station and see a big list of the next 20 trains or so and how long it will take to get there. On the Jubilee Line it even includes those trains which are still heading west to Stratford if you click to see the e/b list at Canary Wharf for example. Not sure when this will be publicly available but I believe the intention is to provide something via the Tube website in a similar vein to that for DLR. This may be available on the Sky Active service launched recently which apparently has "live departure boards" for Tube stations. I haven't had a chance to check it out yet (although I will be able to at the weekend). -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:23:11 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote: Richard J. wrote: Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. Freeze! Put your hands on your head and step AWAY from the fallacy! It is a security and operational issue, and LU do of course have to do something about it. However, those announcements are only "doing something" if they *work*, and the contention being bandied about is that they don't. As has been pointed out, the kind of person (which might be normal people in a certain state of mind) who forgets their baggage is probably not going to be much affected by the announcements. Has this been tested empirically? What alternative is there? Get everyone to check in their personal belongings item-by-item on entry to the system, store it on an Oyster card and then check them out upon exit? It's inevitable that forgetful people will... erm... forget. Making announcements might not affect some people, but probably will affect others. Personally I doubt it. Although I could be convinced with the appropriate experiment, which would be relatively easy to do--just stop making the announcements on a particular stretch of the system for a month and see what changes in lost items are experienced. -- Michael Hoffman |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Paul Corfield wrote:
I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. I'm not puzzled that people leave things on the train. I'm puzzled at the thought that announcement would actually reduce the number of people who leave things on the train. Is there any data to suggest this, or is it a knee-jerk reaction to the problem? No, I can't suggest any better solutions, but I don't think this is one either, and adds to our general annoyance. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. Oh gawd, this isn't some British Standard thing like the reason my workplace has an earsplitting fire alarm test every week, is it? -- Michael Hoffman |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Personally I doubt it. Although I could be convinced with the appropriate experiment, which would be relatively easy to do--just stop making the announcements on a particular stretch of the system for a month and see what changes in lost items are experienced. There is already substantial evidence that people leave things on trains and buses when not reminded. Announcements to remind people to take their belongings are very recent in the history of train and bus travel. In previous years the Lost Property Office did a roaring trade in returning lost items to their owners and selling off unclaimed property to help LT's funds. Whether or not the announcements have actually caused a reduction in lost property I don't know. |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Michael Hoffman wrote:
I'm not puzzled that people leave things on the train. I'm puzzled at the thought that announcement would actually reduce the number of people who leave things on the train. Is there any data to suggest this, or is it a knee-jerk reaction to the problem? People have been leaving their property on underground trains since 1863. The announcements you refer to have only been in use for ten years or so. Hardly knee-jerk. (But I do agree they are a serious pain.) |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:31:55 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. Then the announcements clearly don't work! |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
k wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:31:55 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. Then the announcements clearly don't work! Do you know how many items were left before routine announcements were made? |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Brimstone wrote:
People have been leaving their property on underground trains since 1863. The announcements you refer to have only been in use for ten years or so. Hardly knee-jerk. I was calling it knee-jerk because I have seen no evidence that it helps, it's just a predictable way of trying to solve the problem which may or may not be effective. (But I do agree they are a serious pain.) I would be willing to put up with the pain if there were evidence they actually worked. Which would actually be easy to prove, IMHO, but it would require LU's help to do so. -- Michael Hoffman |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
Michael Hoffman wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Paul Corfield wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:23:11 +0000, Michael Hoffman wrote: Richard J. wrote: Has there been any research into the effectiveness of general exhortations about keeping your belongings with you, about CCTV coverage, about not smoking, etc.? I have always found it particularly hard to believe that the warning not to leave personal belongings on the train was useful whatsoever. While not smoking is a rule someone might not know, people will not purposefully leave their belongings on trains, and I never think "have I left anything on the train?" when I hear the announcement. Maybe that's because I think about it before I get up and many people don't? It really puzzles me. You would not be puzzled if you read the daily report every day and saw how many times there are disruptions because of luggage and items being left behind. People can be completely clueless at times. There is a security issue which cannot be ignored and while it may be tiresome LU is required to respond in a particular way for a given security rating. We have no choice and therefore prevention is better then people being delayed. Freeze! Put your hands on your head and step AWAY from the fallacy! It is a security and operational issue, and LU do of course have to do something about it. However, those announcements are only "doing something" if they *work*, and the contention being bandied about is that they don't. As has been pointed out, the kind of person (which might be normal people in a certain state of mind) who forgets their baggage is probably not going to be much affected by the announcements. Has this been tested empirically? What alternative is there? Get everyone to check in their personal belongings item-by-item on entry to the system, store it on an Oyster card and then check them out upon exit? It's inevitable that forgetful people will... erm... forget. Making announcements might not affect some people, but probably will affect others. Personally I doubt it. Although I could be convinced with the appropriate experiment, which would be relatively easy to do--just stop making the announcements on a particular stretch of the system for a month and see what changes in lost items are experienced. I'll support that experiment. As long as none of the lost items are bombs. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
In message , Brimstone
writes Announcements to remind people to take their belongings are very recent in the history of train and bus travel But signs, at least here in the Midlands, are not. Midland Red instituted "Have you forgotten anything" signs in the forties which lasted until the early seventies. Cynic I suppose people still forgot things, though. (/cynic -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
New victoria line trains
--- Mrs Redboots said...
Tony Wilson wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005: There aren't any accessible Victoria line stations now, so I would be amazed if any use it at present. They are building lifts at Brixton, although I don't know which other stations will be accessible *from* there for wheelchair users. Wheelchair users should be able to use the cross-platform connections at Stockwell, Oxford Circus, Euston, Highbury & Islington, and Finsbury Park. (OTOH, that still leaves the question of how many stations on those lines are wheelchair-accessible?) |
New victoria line trains
"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message
... Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 9 Feb 2005: Call me a cynic but I can't help thinking that flip up seats are probably a lot cheaper than the real thing though I'm sure this in no way would influence their decision , no no, not at all. They've had them on the Paris Metro since the year dot - certainly back in the days of the old Sprague trains. I'm actually surprised they haven't been introduced here until relatively recently. In the Metro, there are great signs telling you not to use them during the rush hours or when the train is busy, so that there is more room for standing passengers. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos They suck for tall people, though. When I'm on those seats, I have to sit there, as if I stood up, I'd be all bent over. The trains in Paris work better, as they're more square in cross-section. On those trains, I can stand anywhere. On tube trains, I have to be in the centre of the train, otherwise I hurt my neck/back. |
Platform announcements (Was: New victoria line trains)
"Brimstone" wrote in message ... Michael Hoffman wrote: Personally I doubt it. Although I could be convinced with the appropriate experiment, which would be relatively easy to do--just stop making the announcements on a particular stretch of the system for a month and see what changes in lost items are experienced. There is already substantial evidence that people leave things on trains and buses when not reminded. Announcements to remind people to take their belongings are very recent in the history of train and bus travel. In previous years the Lost Property Office did a roaring trade in returning lost items to their owners and selling off unclaimed property to help LT's funds. Whether or not the announcements have actually caused a reduction in lost property I don't know. Such an announcement did make realise that I was about to leave my coat on a overhead rack on a train once. I normally blocked them out but part of my brain must have been listening. Dave |
New victoria line trains
--- Boltar said...
True , they are narrow , but small people and kids can sit happily on them and larger people choose to stand. Eh??? What!?! Larger people do *not* willingly choose to stand in tiny, low-roofed tube-stock trains. As soon as any crowd starts pushing us to the edge of the carriage, we start banging our head on the low ceiling! |
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