Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Still untrue. You can buy a Network Rail ticket & a Tube ticket
separately, there's no law requiring you to buy a Travelcard! Of
course, the former would cost you a minimum of £7.10 return, while the
Travelcard would cost you £5.20

Good point. But we're still charged £1.90 *less* for the chance to make
*more* journeys. Or, alternatively, charged £1.90 more for the chance
to make fewer journeys. Whichever way you look at it, it goes against
common sense. Doesn't that indicate that there's something very wrong
at the heart of the system..? Why shouldn't we be able to save money by
not buying those journeys that we don't make?

Perhaps it's like those "Buy two for £2.00" offers at Tesco (or "Two for
£5.00"), where whatever it is, is often too expensive to be worth it if
you only wanted one, but two is a bit much, really.....
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

Solar Penguin wrote:

OTOH I'd say the fact that it doesn't have any demand management
nonsense is a big advantage of my scheme. It gives the transport
providers some incentive to actually improve the supply of transport
where it's needed most, instead of discouraging customers from
travelling. (E.g. if London had had something like that, instead of
zones, maybe we'd have T2K and Crossrail by now!)

But how many more tube trains can be run over the current system? How
many more buses can be run through central London? How many more
overground trains can operate out of the existing London terminal stations?

There's very little room for additional services to be run over the
current network, especially in the peaks. So demand management is required.

The building of new train lines (at enormous cost) tends to attract more
passengers onto the system, so it is unlikely that demand management
could be relaxed, much less eliminated even with improvements in
infrastructure.

What I am hoping for as more advanced ticketing systems (e.g. Oyster)
are introduced are more attempts to balance demand by time (more
incentives to travel off-peak when the network is quieter) as well as by
area (through the zonal system).

--
Mark Etherington

tim wrote:
"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...

tim wrote:



It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you buy
is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

What are you talking about? You said that it is complicated, implying
that is a problem, I merely pointed out it is no more complicated than
any shopping trip.

As for your costs of distribution 'argument', this is total hogwash.
The price of many goods bears no relationship to their cost of
distribution, compare a designer dress with a cheap one. Or are you
saying that all sale prices should be related to the cost of
distribution - in which case all travel tickets would cost the same.

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

No, I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents.

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

No, smart. If you go to any shop (which is what a station booking
office is) when it is quiet then there is less chance of a queue.

Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Dave Arquati said...

What makes you think that passengers to Waterloo are paying twice the
distance they're travelling? Given that the number of people
travelling from Morden to Zone 1 must *vastly* outnumber those
travelling beyond
into northern parts of the outer zones, I find it much more likely
that passengers to Mill Hill East are actually paying *less* than
they would under a point-to-point system.

Ahhh... You think it's those elusive across-London-to-Mill-Hill-East
passengers that TfL are so eager to attract with artificially low fares?
Or given that the number of people travelling from Morden to Zone 1
must *vastly* outnumber those travelling beyond into northern parts of
the outer zones, is it more likely that TfL have artificially high
prices to discourage all those passengers congesting the network and
only going into zone 1.

Artificially low fares to MHW or artificially high fares to zone 1?
Which are they really doing? Either way, it doesn't matter, as long as
they're stopped.

How can fares be "artificially high"? It's not like thousands of Zone 1
commuters are subsidising about ten Mill Hill East ones.

TfL's fare prices do discourage some from congesting the network in zone
1. I don't see the problem; it's simple economics - you have a supply
which can't meet demand, so you raise the price of the product. The only
artificiality is that the price is subsidised by the state for social
reasons. If TfL fares were completely "natural", then they would
probably be significantly higher than they are now, and London would
cease to have a transport system that served the needs of its population.

The fares are what they are; enough to allow people to actually travel,
but not enough to prevent excessive overcrowding, and somewhere vaguely
in the middle when it comes to raising money for improvements and
covering operating costs.

They're not being charged twice what they should; the Mill Hill East
travellers are paying less than they would under your system.

And how many times do people actually want to travel across London to
Mill Hill East? Compare that to the number of times people want to
travel to Central London. There are more people getting ripped off than
there are getting good value.

You raised the example. I agree that few people want to travel across
London to MHE, so does it really matter that their fares are the same as
a fare into Zone 1? Good value is a sticky concept when it comes to the
Tube, but lowering fares to Zone 1 would be disastrous financially for
TfL, so the only remaining strategy would be to raise fares for
cross-London journeys, which would probably only raise marginal extra
revenues.

You *can* buy a return between those stations, but it's more expensive
than a Travelcard, so you get a Travelcard instead.

And that's exactly what I'm complaining about! Common sense says a
return should cost less than a Travelcard. The fact that it costs more
is **proof** that there's something seriously wrong with the current
system. What more evidence do you need!?!

Don't get so worked up about the fact that Travelcards cost less than
returns in some cases! I say "in some cases" as Zone 1 and 2 fares make
sense by your definition.

We were comparing baked beans to TfL tickets. Annabel rightly pointed
out that Tesco might offer 2 cans of baked beans for 40p when one can
costs 25p. That's not a bad thing - you're saving money! Why is it done?
It's to encourage people to buy more baked beans, even if they don't go
into the shop wanting two cans.

TfL want to encourage people to use public transport. You might only be
in the market for a return journey, but it happens that a Travelcard
costs less than that return journey. You pay less than a return journey;
is that a bad thing?

Behind the scenes, I'm sure TfL are acutely aware that Travelcards cost
less than returns from zone 3 outwards. They obviously don't consider it
a problem. The Travelcard system has been designed to make sure the
fares are allocated appropriately, by measuring the numbers of
passengers on services across the system, and distributing revenues
accordingly.

As for flexibility, I once travelled from Gloucester Road to Arnos Grove
and back. I bought a Travelcard because it was cheaper than two singles
at the time (although now, for off-peak journeys, Prepay singles are
cheaper). On the way back, my train stopped for ten minutes at Bounds
Green, where it was announced that there was some problem at Hyde Park
Corner causing extensive delays to the Piccadilly line. Having a
Travelcard, I left the Tube and walked to Bowes Park, caught a train to
Highbury & Islington and got on the Victoria line. Then they announced
some problem on the Victoria line and the train took an age to get to
King's Cross, so I got out, gave up on the Tube and took a bus.

Did I originally need a Travelcard? No. Was it useful? Yes. Was it
cheaper? Yes.

In an alternative scenario where a return fare was cheaper and a
Travelcard was the same price as originally, I would have been worse off
- yes, I saved money, but my ticket was inflexible so I would have had
difficulty getting the train or bus, and TfL would have been worse off,
as they would be receiving less money to put towards fixing these
annoyingly regular occurrences.

In an alternative scenario where a return fare was the same price as
before but a Travelcard was more expensive, I would have been worse off
- it didn't cost me any different, but again I had an inflexible ticket.
The people who don't just make a simple return journey would also have
been worse off as their tickets would have been more expensive.

(*snip vague off-the-top-of-my-head ideas about ways to streamline a
poin-to-point fares system*)


It's a nice idea (and I especially support a ticket for all modes of
transport), but you need a method of managing demand on busy routes
and in busy areas too.


Why? That just gives the transport providers an excuse for not
increasing supply to match demand.

Where does all the money come from to increase the supply?
Would you prefer to be left waiting on platforms in the meantime because
you can't physically fit on the train?

In many cases, supply is at 100% of capacity or even above (e.g.
approaches to London Bridge). The solutions cost billions of pounds. How
will lowering fares help?

Without any demand management, the transport providers will be incapable
of providing the service that you have paid for. That is no solution by
anyone's standards.

What about families? Rail can't possibly compete with car without some
sort of discount for groups travelling together.

Well, if you really want to encourage families, then myabe children
could be added as a supplement to the adult ticket along with the first
class supplement etc. Or just add a surcharge to all adult tickets.
(But it's starting to get complicated again. It's worth going for the
simpler system, especially if it means we don't have to put up with
noisy kids on our trains! Keep them in cars, where only their parents
will have to suffer! nirg)

You could offer a ticket supplement which offers free sedative-spiked
drinks for children.

More seriously, it's not a good idea just to say "keep them in cars";
not all families have a car, and we don't really want cars to be used
more than necessary (certainly not in London).

And once again, I think you'll find the child is being undercharged
(i.e. encouraged), rather than the adult being overcharged (i.e.
penalised).

It works both ways. You can't aid the children without also penalising
the adults.

You're not penalising the adults if their tickets cost the same as they
would have done in the first place!

Train journeys are hardly comparable to baked beans or magazines.

But they could become comparable. That's what I'm aiming towards with
this system.

See above, special offers.

Your system certainly has some merit; however, it falls down in one
major factor, which is demand management, dealt with quite simply and
easily by a zonal system in cities.


OTOH I'd say the fact that it doesn't have any demand management
nonsense is a big advantage of my scheme. It gives the transport
providers some incentive to actually improve the supply of transport
where it's needed most, instead of discouraging customers from
travelling. (E.g. if London had had something like that, instead of
zones, maybe we'd have T2K and Crossrail by now!)

It's ludicrous to say that demand management is a "nonsense"; it clearly
works very well for planes and lack of it causes untold misery for
motorists.

One of the advantages of road user charging is that it would manage
demand, provide new income to improve transport and doesn't charge
motorists in lightly-trafficked areas the same way as a motorist in the
centre of a huge city. If we are considering making that step forward on
the roads, why would we make a step back on the railways and charge
someone travelling 3 miles through rural Cornwall the same price as
someone travelling 3 miles through inner London?

Cutting revenue and causing unnecessary extra overcrowding and customer
dissatisfaction is hardly an incentive to improve supply.


There is also an issue with understanding; people don't really care
what the distance is between their journey points, but journey time
and price are very important. In London, if people want to perform
any journey in London they haven't done before, the price, based on a
zonal system, is very transparent - what zones do I travel through?
With a distance-based system, it's only possible to make an informed
decision by using some computer-based tool (or consulting an
extremely large set of tables).

OTOH looking at any map will allow you to estimate the distance and so
give you a fairly good idea of what it would cost.

Not very useful in London where you either have a simple schematic map
or a visually intimidating geographical one.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...
tim wrote:
"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...

tim wrote:



It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

It's not a question of coping, it's a question of costs of
distribution/sale. When buying a tangible item there is inherently
a cost of distribution in getting the goods on the shelf. adding to this
cost by having to this stick a little price sticker does not make much
difference. A travel ticket has no cost of distribution other than
that of calculating the price, making the price calcualtion more
difficult makes a bigger difference.

What are you talking about? You said that it is complicated, implying
that is a problem, I merely pointed out it is no more complicated than any
shopping trip.

It is complicated for the provider, therefore it adds to the cost of
sale.

As for your costs of distribution 'argument', this is total hogwash. The
price of many goods bears no relationship to their cost of distribution,

Of course there isn't a relationship, but there is an element of
cost that is 'distribution. Make the distribution more complicated
and this cost goes up.

compare a designer dress with a cheap one. Or are you saying that all
sale prices should be related to the cost of distribution - in which case
all travel tickets would cost the same.

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

No, I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents.

I never made this assertion. I simply suggest that it is often easier
to buy your travel tickets at the newsagents rather than the station.
This is definately the case with an unmanned station where the machine
might be vandalised, not have the correct change etc and you have the
aggro of explaining all this to the guard to avoid a penalty fare, noting
that some of the reason you can think of do not avoid the penalty.

If you don't like the idea of buying them at the newsagents then
that's fine, but why does this give you the right to deny this option
to somebody else?

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

No, smart. If you go to any shop (which is what a station booking office
is) when it is quiet then there is less chance of a queue.

Um, so I'll change my meeting time to one when I know that the
booking office is not going to have a queue, that'll go down well
won't it?

tim

tim wrote:
"Stephen Osborn" wrote in message
...


What are you talking about? You said that it is complicated, implying
that is a problem, I merely pointed out it is no more complicated than any
shopping trip.


It is complicated for the provider, therefore it adds to the cost of
sale.

A. So is that your only concern? If so you are ditching your earlier
assertion that a complicated point-to-point ticketing system is bad for
the passenger buying a ticket.

B. If it is implemented (as I suggested in a single computerised
database) then any extra cost of a more complex system is spread out
over millions of tickets and effectively amounts to nothing.

As for your costs of distribution 'argument', this is total hogwash. The
price of many goods bears no relationship to their cost of distribution,


Of course there isn't a relationship, but there is an element of
cost that is 'distribution. Make the distribution more complicated
and this cost goes up.

As B above.

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents.

so go to another news agents.

No, I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents.

I never made this assertion. I simply suggest that it is often easier
to buy your travel tickets at the newsagents rather than the station.
This is definately the case with an unmanned station where the machine
might be vandalised, not have the correct change etc and you have the
aggro of explaining all this to the guard to avoid a penalty fare, noting
that some of the reason you can think of do not avoid the penalty.

QUOTE
Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).
/QUOTE

Sounds like an assumption that there will be a queue at the station but
not at the newsagents to me.

If you don't like the idea of buying them at the newsagents then
that's fine, but why does this give you the right to deny this option
to somebody else?

Now who is trying to put words in other people's mouths?
I never came near suggesting that tickets should not be sold in
newsagents. In:
"I was merely pointing out an unfounded assumption, namely that there
will always be a queue at a station and never at a newsagents."
the word merely shows that refuting the assumption was the limit of my
comment.

Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3 annual) I do so
off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.

aren't you lucky.

No, smart. If you go to any shop (which is what a station booking office
is) when it is quiet then there is less chance of a queue.

Um, so I'll change my meeting time to one when I know that the
booking office is not going to have a queue, that'll go down well
won't it?

I never said that either. I assume that you would not go into a
newsagents at a busy time (on the way to the station in the morning,
say) and expect a guarantee there will be no queue. You might go to the
newsagents at a quite time, the previous evening perhaps.

Of course you could go to the station at a quite time as well.

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

We were comparing baked beans to TfL tickets. Annabel rightly pointed
out that Tesco might offer 2 cans of baked beans for 40p when one can
costs 25p. That's not a bad thing - you're saving money!

I've never known them do that (and I don't think that is what Annabel
meant). Baked beans last for years, so the consumer would need only half
the quantity and thus Tesco would lose out.

Much more common is to offer two bags of veg or salad (or two almost
expired pizzas) for a reduced price. People fall for the offer but
cannot consume that much fresh food before it goes off - so they throw
away the out-of-date goods.

They then need to buy the same quantity of goods as before ... so
instead of selling two lots of goods at 25p, Tesco has managed to sell
one at 40p and the other at 25p (if not 40p again!).

Sadly, this is becoming *very* common (especially in Sainsburys, but
also Tesco).

Getting back on topic, rail-fare offers will only make an impact if a
reasonable number of people can benefit from them - if the benefit is
limited to a few people, the benefit to the TOC will similarly be very
limited.

--
Paul Terry

Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Solar Penguin said...


For example, the development of GPS systems means that it's possible
to calculate the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between
stations, and use that as a basis for a point-to-point system. (This
way, we eliminate much of the complicated routing nonsense which makes
NR's present fares system so awkward. After all, from the customer's
POV it's only the start and end points that really matter, not the
places in between.)

Multiply that straight-line distance by a fixed pounds-per-mile rate,
and you get the base cost of the ticket. You can then add on various
fixed value premiums for premium services, e.g.

** travelling first class

** travelling by an express train instead of a stopping train

** even travelling by a train instead of a bus (assuming that this
could be the basis for tickets on all modes of transport)



Oops. I forgot to add that CDRs etc. can be treated as a fixed premium
added to the single fare at this point. Should've double checked
everything before I pressed Send. Sorry.


Just to throw this into all the other arguments, if it's illogical that
a Travelcard costs less than some singles, then it's also illogical that
a return should cost less than two singles. Why would you price a CDR as
a fixed premium added to the single fare?

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

We were comparing baked beans to TfL tickets. Annabel rightly pointed
out that Tesco might offer 2 cans of baked beans for 40p when one can
costs 25p. That's not a bad thing - you're saving money!


I've never known them do that (and I don't think that is what Annabel
meant). Baked beans last for years, so the consumer would need only half
the quantity and thus Tesco would lose out.

Much more common is to offer two bags of veg or salad (or two almost
expired pizzas) for a reduced price. People fall for the offer but
cannot consume that much fresh food before it goes off - so they throw
away the out-of-date goods.

They then need to buy the same quantity of goods as before ... so
instead of selling two lots of goods at 25p, Tesco has managed to sell
one at 40p and the other at 25p (if not 40p again!).

Sadly, this is becoming *very* common (especially in Sainsburys, but
also Tesco).

Oh dear, I didn't really mean to start a debate about Tesco pricing
policies... I'm pretty sure that Annabel meant that sometimes, two goods
are offered together for a price that is cheaper than their individual
prices combined.

They might not sell two baked beans cans for a discount, but they
certainly *do* sell four cans for a discount - multipacks.

Personally, my purchase of baked beans is related to how many I can
carry back from the supermarket...

Getting back on topic, rail-fare offers will only make an impact if a
reasonable number of people can benefit from them - if the benefit is
limited to a few people, the benefit to the TOC will similarly be very
limited.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:09:49 +0000, Paul Terry wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

We were comparing baked beans to TfL tickets. Annabel rightly pointed
out that Tesco might offer 2 cans of baked beans for 40p when one can
costs 25p. That's not a bad thing - you're saving money!

I've never known them do that [...]

There's a BOGOF on Crosse & Blackwell 4-can packs of baked beans (and
other C&B items, for that matter) at Tesco at the moment.


Ob.railway? Err.. Can't think of one. Oh, I know: the sandwich shop
outside Lincoln station (now defunct) had the annoying habit of
putting baked beans, with lots of sauce, on its breakfast rolls, thus
making them very messy eating on the train. The sandwich stall outside
Sleaford station, OTOH, doesn't - and makes an excellent sausage,
bacon & egg roll. Ideal for those mornings when you really need a
decent brekkie - and as she takes phone orders I don't even have to
delay my train whilst it's cooked. ;-)

--
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)