On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:04:09 +0000, Mrs Redboots
wrote:

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay) to
buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the 3 or 4
buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it. There is no
obligation on you to buy a Travelcard if you don't want to.

And that, as I see it, is a serious fault with the way TfL, and much
of the rest of the UK's public transport, is operated.

A proper connectional public transport system (yes, one of those
things you don't see a lot of in the UK, not even in London) is made
up of a number of interlinked modes, and any one journey may use any
or all of those modes depending on the quickest or most practical
route from point A to point B.

As such, the fare from point A to point B (or over however many zones
- whether the system is zonal or not is irrelevant to the argument)
should be the same, for the use of any or all of those modes.

To do anything different, as the UK tends to, is to artificially
direct people into making long "trunk" journeys by bus rather than
bus+rail+bus, for example, which results in many miles of wasteful bus
routes that don't need to be there at all, and even worse to (often
commercial) bus routes competing against (often subsidised) rail
within a city transport system, which is nothing short of downright
scandalous, and an utter waste of money.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In message , Neil Williams
writes
And that, as I see it, is a serious fault with the way TfL, and much of
the rest of the UK's public transport, is operated.

A proper connectional public transport system (yes, one of those things
you don't see a lot of in the UK, not even in London) is made up of a
number of interlinked modes, and any one journey may use any or all of
those modes depending on the quickest or most practical route from
point A to point B.

As such, the fare from point A to point B (or over however many zones -
whether the system is zonal or not is irrelevant to the argument)
should be the same, for the use of any or all of those modes.

Although I have some sympathy with such a system, London is so large and
complex (and busy), that charging a supplement for Underground travel
(which is effectively what happens when compared to buses) is I feel
justified in return for the faster journey. (Hamburg has - or had -
something similar for its express buses).

Paris also has no bus-metro transfer beyond the sort of passes available
in London.

The actual *price* of those fares is a different matter, of course.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:51:24 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

Although I have some sympathy with such a system, London is so large and
complex (and busy), that charging a supplement for Underground travel
(which is effectively what happens when compared to buses) is I feel
justified in return for the faster journey. (Hamburg has - or had -
something similar for its express buses).

It does, but not for that reason. The reason for the
Schnellbus-Zuschlag is not that the express buses are particularly
quick (they're not - most of the routes are surprisingly circuitous),
but because they provide a "value added" function of direct journeys
into the city centre without having to change. IOW, they're an
additional service on top of the normal service map.

That contrasts somewhat from the fact that the normal "integrated"
service map in London (which I'd say does, or should, consist of the
Tube, the city buses and the inner-suburban NR lines, especially in
South London) has different fares across all modes, with the
Travelcard being the only thing bringing them together.

Your point about a "Tube supplement" being a sensible add-on due to
the chronic overcrowding. especially in Zone 1, is a valid one.
However, the current system doesn't only provide that, it provides a
harsh penalty for someone making a single journey involving two buses,
or bus-Tube-bus, which is precisely the kind of journey you want to
encourage in that kind of system.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Ian Jelf wrote:

Although I have some sympathy with such a system, London is so large and
complex (and busy), that charging a supplement for Underground travel
(which is effectively what happens when compared to buses) is I feel
justified in return for the faster journey. (Hamburg has - or had -
something similar for its express buses).

Paris also has no bus-metro transfer beyond the sort of passes available
in London.

Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

--
John Ray, London UK.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:41:32 +0000, John Ray
wrote:

Ian Jelf wrote:

Although I have some sympathy with such a system, London is so large and
complex (and busy), that charging a supplement for Underground travel
(which is effectively what happens when compared to buses) is I feel
justified in return for the faster journey. (Hamburg has - or had -
something similar for its express buses).

Paris also has no bus-metro transfer beyond the sort of passes available
in London.

Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

This is entirely a guess but I doubt that RATP want to encourage people
to use buses too much. This is simply because the network is nowhere
near as comprehensive as that in London and also it has fairly
restrictive operating hours. Given that a lot of people still live close
in to the centre and that Paris retains its local centres there is less
need for a comprehensive bus service.

In recent years there has been some improvement / expansion of the buses
but it is still the poor relation to the rail network. It gets even
worse once you leave the Paris city area and get to the suburbs. I stay
with friends to the North West of Paris and there is a good RER and SNCF
service but the only RATP bus is once an hour and the local operator
does not provide anything even resembling a bus service when compared to
the sheer excess of service we have in London for the same sort of area.
As an example I catch a SNCF local service from Gare du Nord and then
have to connect one stop by RER. Ideally I'd be able to get a local bus
from the SNCF station which is barely 10 mins by car from my friends
place. However there is NO local bus service between the two places and
I've only ever seen one bus (running off service) at about 8pm. It's
worse than some parts of deregulated Britain!

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I
*thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket
per zone, same as the metro?

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

Mrs Redboots wrote:

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I
*thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket
per zone, same as the metro?

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

--
John Ray

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 14 Feb 2005:

Mrs Redboots wrote:

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

If you read French, there's a very interesting history of the Paris bus
network on http://tinyurl.com/3rhfv which says, among other things, that
the 1970s were really the nadir of the network, and that they have done
a great deal to improve things since then.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:39:53 +0000, John Ray
wrote:

Mrs Redboots wrote:

John Ray wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 13 Feb 2005:


Strangely (to me), in Paris, there is in effect a supplement charged for
the buses. One ticket will take you right across the city on the Metro,
but 3 tickets may be needed for the same distance on a bus. I have often
wondered why this is.

I know that was the case in the 1970s when I lived there, but I
*thought* - and I could easily be mistaken - that now it was one ticket
per zone, same as the metro?

I've just checked - it is one ticket now, except on the Balabus and four
other lines, the 221, 297, 299, 350 & 351. Don't know where those run,
but the 3-figure numbers tend to be in the suburbs. And you can't
change bus without another ticket.

Thank you for that. I haven't used a bus in Paris for many years,
because of the (then) ticketing regime, so I hadn't noticed the change.
On my next visit I will try to wean myself away from the Metro.

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number. It is then valid for travel within the zones purchases.
Admittedly it is a sort of premium product but it is very handy if you
need to use SNCF or RER services beyond the central area. It also opens
up the bus network for you to use.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value
for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't
publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite
pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.

--
John Ray