"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote
on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no
surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was
the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings
mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many
other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a
proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP
infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.)

From where I was sitting, the vote question was very clearly worded - it
said would you support the Tube finishing an hour later on Fridays and
Saturdays but starting an hour later on Saturdays and Sundays.

They couldn't have been much clearer about it.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

It is a logical decision to me.

1) The number of people who want to travel late on a Friday & Saturday night
is *much* greater than those who want to travel early on Saturday and Sunday
morning, so it's for the greater good. The number of people cramming on to
last trains out of the West End at the moment, compared to those using first
trains on Saturday & Sunday, is evidence enough.

2) Road traffic before 7.30am on Saturday, and before 8.30am on Sunday is
about as light as it gets, so the difference in journey time between bus and
tube is minimised (particularly if some express buses are laid on to
compensate for the lack of tube).

3) The tube will still be working in good time for the majority of Saturday
& Sunday users. Shop workers in stores with regular weekend opening hours
(9am start Saturday, 10 or 11am start Sunday) will not be affected. Some
jobs where shift changes are based around tube times could move the shift
change by an hour if necessary.

Colin

Well, clearly the full question *wasn't* heard clearly where I and a
colleague were sitting (L/H at rear), since we both reached the same
assumption that the full implications weren't mentioned.

How are people required to start around 0700-0730 going to get to work
on Sunday mornings? Frankly, employers are not going to be interested
in how they get there and despite ken's exhortation that "buses are
getting better" they are *not* a viable alternative for people living
in the suburbs.

As for the Infracos holding London to ransom, even if I don't think
Livingstone a particular good example to quote, I'll settle for
Christian Wolmar, Simon Jenkins and Peter Ford to start with. Also, the
Infracos moaned like hell recently when LU cancelled 'engineering
hours' to allow sleet trains to run, despite heavy snow being forecast.
Clearly, it was better for them to carry out maintenance work at night
on lines, and risk no service operating in the morning, and then pay
the penalty charges (capped after a certain time), instead of
postponing such activities and ensure lines were kept ice-free for
passenger trains.

wrote:
Well, clearly the full question *wasn't* heard clearly where I and a
colleague were sitting (L/H at rear), since we both reached the same
assumption that the full implications weren't mentioned.

The question was clearly worded on the screen. The person reading it out
may have faffed around a little - I was reading rather than listening to
him. I accept that some people in the audience may have been relying on
hearing rather than looking, but for the majority who could see the
screen, the question was clear.

How are people required to start around 0700-0730 going to get to work
on Sunday mornings? Frankly, employers are not going to be interested
in how they get there and despite ken's exhortation that "buses are
getting better" they are *not* a viable alternative for people living
in the suburbs.

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work
on Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to
compensate for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable
alternative, they seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the
week. However, the demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting
the Tube take the strain seems like a sensible proposal.

As for the Infracos holding London to ransom, even if I don't think
Livingstone a particular good example to quote, I'll settle for
Christian Wolmar, Simon Jenkins and Peter Ford to start with. Also, the
Infracos moaned like hell recently when LU cancelled 'engineering
hours' to allow sleet trains to run, despite heavy snow being forecast.
Clearly, it was better for them to carry out maintenance work at night
on lines, and risk no service operating in the morning, and then pay
the penalty charges (capped after a certain time), instead of
postponing such activities and ensure lines were kept ice-free for
passenger trains.

Engineering time would still be required regardless of whether we had
infracos or not. Whether infracos are inefficient or poor value is a
completely different discussion.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on
Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate
for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they
seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the
demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the
strain seems like a sensible proposal.

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Dave

Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on
Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate
for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they
seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the
demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the
strain seems like a sensible proposal.

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night
as it is.
We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.
--
Kat

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat wrote:

Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on
Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate
for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they
seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the
demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the
strain seems like a sensible proposal.

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night
as it is.

My sympathies.

We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.

Slightly OT, but if people saw sober people getting challenged for jumping
barriers or using child tickets during the day time, then the sense of
injustice that emboldens them to jump after a few lagers may be reduced.

Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.

?????

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat
wrote:


We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.


At least Ken is consulting.

Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I
can't see them consulting....


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:49:58 +0000, Robert Woolley
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat
wrote:


We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.


At least Ken is consulting.

Ken consulting reminds me of Dogbert' definiton of consulting. (A cross
between a con and insulting you).

Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I
can't see them consulting....

Neither is in a position to do so, as you well know.

Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between:

People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night

vs.

People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning

What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am
and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in
theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation?

Jase

Kat wrote:
Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not
want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board
the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least
they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday
night
as it is.
We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with
valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning,
will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line
train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25
isn't
much fun either.
--
Kat

wrote in message
ups.com...
Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between:

People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night

vs.

People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning

What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am
and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in
theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation?


This is a very good point - these are workers too after all, probably just
as badly paid and with options that are just as limited as the people who
make the journey to work first thing in the morning.

If the number of workers is about the same, surely the side-effect of
ferrying the hordes of revellers home efficiently is an argument in favour
of later running?

xx j