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I had read that there were some shelters built under some of the
central tube stations, but that the planned one at St. Pauls was never actually built. Now, I was passing through St. Pauls this morning on an eastbound train, and happened to stand at the back (west), which is unusual for me, and when we got to St. Pauls, I noticed that there seemed to be a series of several black doors at the west end of the platform. I would guess this is pretty close to where the old post office building was, near the bombed church, and there seems to be a wierd blockhouse in a similar position in the middle of the road on the surface. Did they build it after all, as it would have been good for the Post office, but keep it secret, or are these doors something completely unconnected? |
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Could be something to do with the old lift concourse and ticket hall.
B2003 |
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lonelytraveller wrote:
I had read that there were some shelters built under some of the central tube stations, but that the planned one at St. Pauls was never actually built. Now, I was passing through St. Pauls this morning on an eastbound train, and happened to stand at the back (west), which is unusual for me, and when we got to St. Pauls, I noticed that there seemed to be a series of several black doors at the west end of the platform. I would guess this is pretty close to where the old post office building was, near the bombed church, and there seems to be a wierd blockhouse in a similar position in the middle of the road on the surface. Did they build it after all, as it would have been good for the Post office, but keep it secret, or are these doors something completely unconnected? According to our duty manager, who used to work on that group, the doors do lead to what was going to be a shelter. He said that while the excavating was taking place local people complained about the noise and got the work stopped by finding some ancient law forbidding any tunnelling under St Paul's Cathedral. The excavated area is now a ventilation shaft and the block house thing you describe is the top of it. That was what I was told..... -- Kat |
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The lift concourse is further along - by the escalators - you can
actually see one of the corridoors above the bottom landing of the escalators, and the other one is just along the platform where the black doors are. The doors I mean are right at the western end, which is much further away. |
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I didn't think the tube was as far south as the cathedral. Do you mean
a law about the bombed out church? |
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lonelytraveller wrote:
I didn't think the tube was as far south as the cathedral. Do you mean a law about the bombed out church? I did wonder about that too but I'm only repeating what I was told. I did find this though; written by Nick who posts here regularly. http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm If you scroll down there's a bit about St Paul's. -- Kat |
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In message , Kat
writes lonelytraveller wrote: I didn't think the tube was as far south as the cathedral. Do you mean a law about the bombed out church? I did wonder about that too but I'm only repeating what I was told. It was the Dean 7 Chapter (ie the "Cathedral authorities") who complained about the shelter tunnelling shortly after it began. The complaint was actually about disturbance to the former churchyard, I understand, rather than the fabric of the Cathedral per se. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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"lonelytraveller" wrote in
message oups.com... I didn't think the tube was as far south as the cathedral. Do you mean a law about the bombed out church? No. There is a law against tunnelling within a significant area around St Pauls. AFAIK there is no such law concerning any other building, even Big Ben. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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On Thu, 5 May 2005, Kat wrote:
lonelytraveller wrote: I had read that there were some shelters built under some of the central tube stations, but that the planned one at St. Pauls was never actually built. According to our duty manager, who used to work on that group, the doors do lead to what was going to be a shelter. He said that while the excavating was taking place local people complained about the noise and got the work stopped by finding some ancient law forbidding any tunnelling under St Paul's Cathedral. Hang on - was this *during* the war? "Bomb shelter? No thanks, too noisy! We'll just sit here with these nice quiet BOMBS FALLING ON OUR HEADS."?!?! tom -- The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead |
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John Rowland wrote:
No. There is a law against tunnelling within a significant area around St Pauls. AFAIK there is no such law concerning any other building, even Big Ben. So how did the CLR manage to get their tunnels in then? |
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"TheOneKEA" wrote in message
ups.com... John Rowland wrote: No. There is a law against tunnelling within a significant area around St Pauls. AFAIK there is no such law concerning any other building, even Big Ben. So how did the CLR manage to get their tunnels in then? They used the Tardis to go back in time, and then built the tunnel before the law was introduced. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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Thats a good point really. The wierd shelter door things are on the
north side of the platform, so if they could build the tube why were they not allowed to build to the north of it? |
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Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Kat wrote: lonelytraveller wrote: I had read that there were some shelters built under some of the central tube stations, but that the planned one at St. Pauls was never actually built. According to our duty manager, who used to work on that group, the doors do lead to what was going to be a shelter. He said that while the excavating was taking place local people complained about the noise and got the work stopped by finding some ancient law forbidding any tunnelling under St Paul's Cathedral. Hang on - was this *during* the war? "Bomb shelter? No thanks, too noisy! We'll just sit here with these nice quiet BOMBS FALLING ON OUR HEADS."?!?! tom -- The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead As a matter of interest, was there any work done at Bethnal Green or Oval? As I recall there might have been some done at Oval, but it was abandoned due to water ingress. Neill |
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On 6 May 2005 15:47:08 -0700, "Neillw001"
wrote: As a matter of interest, was there any work done at Bethnal Green Abandoned due to persistent flooding. or Oval? As I recall there might have been some done at Oval, but it was abandoned due to water ingress. Abandoned due to persistent flooding from unexepected water-bearing stratum (i.e. not the buried River Effra, as per some accounts). -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
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In article . com,
TheOneKEA writes No. There is a law against tunnelling within a significant area around St Pauls. AFAIK there is no such law concerning any other building, even Big Ben. So how did the CLR manage to get their tunnels in then? Because they were building under the authority of their own Act of Parliament, and the authorities at St.Pauls would have had an opportunity to object at the time. The shelter tunnels didn't have an Act; they were wartime emergency work. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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I read somewhere that there was a huge cathedral sized cavern just off
the running tunnels between bethnal green and liverpool street. Couldn't they just have built the bunker in that instead of digging tunnels below the water table nearby? |
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So the authority of St. Paul's outweighs any authority that the
government has, even in times of national emergency? |
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In article .com,
lonelytraveller wrote: So the authority of St. Paul's outweighs any authority that the government has, even in times of national emergency? No; the authority of parliment outweighs a mere offical (eg: a minister). I'm not sure that's true anymore, but it was in WWII. -- Mike Bristow - really a very good driver |
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On 7 May 2005 05:46:46 -0700, "lonelytraveller"
wrote: I read somewhere that there was a huge cathedral sized cavern just off the running tunnels between bethnal green and liverpool street. Couldn't they just have built the bunker in that instead of digging tunnels below the water table nearby? No, because the whole point of the Deep Level Shelters is that they were designed to be adaptable after the War as parts of the Underground network, and "huge cathedral sized cavern(s)" - even if they actually exist - don't fit that criteria. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
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I had read that there were some shelters built under some of the
central tube stations, but that the planned one at St. Pauls was never actually built. According to "Rails Through the Clay", in 1940 deep shelter tunnels -- either beside or below the existing tubes -- were considered at 13 stations, 11 on the Northern Line and 2 on the Central: - plans rejected (3): Leicester Square, Mornington Crescent, Warren Street - construction started but abandoned (2): Oval, St. Paul's - completed in 1942 but retained for military or other government use throughout the war (3): Chancery Lane, Clapham Common, Goodge Street. - completed in 1942, initially retained for military or other government use, but opened to the public in 1944 (5): Belsize Park, Camden Town, Clapham North, Clapham South, Stockwell. They were built by London Transport, which had the option of taking them over for railway use after the war. Accordingly, locations were chosen so that if it was found desirable to construct express relief tubes for these two lines, then the shelters could become sections of running tunnel. The shelters each consisted of twin 16'6" diameter tunnels 1,400 feet long, each divided for shelter purposes into two decks, with two access shafts. They were planned for a capacity of 9,600 per shelter at a cost of £15 per person, or about £1,500,000 for all 10 shelters, but eventually it was decided that only 8,000 people should be fitted into each one, and the cost was from £35 to £42 each, or about £2,500,000 for the 8 completed shelters. -- Mark Brader | "You read war books -- people shooting each other, Toronto | people bombing each other, people torturing each | other. I like to look at people doing, uh, naughty | things to each other!" -- Ria, "Butterflies" My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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What I meant was, wasn't it possibly for them just to add the
prefabricated steel tunnel rings into an already existing cavern? It would save a lot of effort. |
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What I meant was, wasn't it possibly for them just to add the
prefabricated steel tunnel rings into an already existing cavern? It would save a lot of effort. |
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If Clapham Town, Clapham North, and Clapham South are the public ones,
then where was Clapham Common? There are only 3 tube stations in clapham as far as I know |
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No. There is a law against tunnelling within a
significant area around St Pauls. AFAIK there is no such law concerning any other building, even Big Ben. So how did the CLR manage to get their tunnels in then? They used the Tardis to go back in time, and then built the tunnel before the law was introduced. Right. "Rails Through the Clay" says the cathedral Authorities (so capitalized) "feared that the foundations of the cathedral might be affected"; and a footnote reads: "The Cathedral had been given statutory protection against damage from underground tunnels, in the City of London (St Paul's Cathedral Preservation) Act 1935." The footnote continues by citing "PRO MT 6/2728 and HO 205/266". PRO is the Public Record Office and I presume the rest of this is the numbers of two files there. The CLR tunnels, of course, had been finished in 1900 -- but they weren't quite as well aligned as the Yerkes tube tunnels opened a few years later, and this restricted the size of trains that could use them. With the 1930s plan to extend the line east and west (mostly completed after the war), it was decided to enlarge the tunnels to allow standard tube stock could be used, as well as lengthening the stations to take 8-car trains. It seems a reasonable conjecture that the "cathedral Authorities" were similarly fearful of all this planned tunneling (which actually happened in 1936-38), and wanted to make sure it was done with due regard for their building; and that the protective 1935 act was a response to their concerns. But that part is just my guess; for all I know, maybe the timing of the act was just a coincidence. -- Mark Brader, Toronto | "...blind faith can ruin the eyesight-- | and the perspective." --Robert Ludlum My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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"Kat":
According to our duty manager... while the excavating was taking place local people complained about the noise and got the work stopped by finding some ancient law forbidding any tunnelling under St Paul's Cathedral. Yes, well, that sounds like someone telling a story that way because it sounds good. As I just pointed out elsewhere in the thread, it was actually the cathedral authorities themselves who objected, and under a 1935 law. Tom Anderson: Hang on - was this *during* the war? "Bomb shelter? No thanks, too noisy! We'll just sit here with these nice quiet BOMBS FALLING ON OUR HEADS."?!?! It seems entirely possible to me that when the construction began, there was no announcement of what it was for. It seems to have been the way of things at the time that if something was in any way war- related, then you didn't make it public until either the public had a clear need to know, or else the enemy clearly already knew about it. (When the V-2 rocket attacks on London began, nothing was said for 3 months about the explosions being caused by enemy missiles. See my old posting http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/msg/d4edd85f5a82dae4?dmode=source&hl=en.) Neill Wormwood: As a matter of interest, was there any work done at Bethnal Green or Oval? As I recall there might have been some done at Oval, but it was abandoned due to water ingress. Right. As to Bethnal Green, at the outbreak of war the Central Line still ended at Liverpool Street. But construction was well advanced on the eastern extension, and the *incomplete station* at Bethnal Green was used as a shelter, as were a number of other incomplete or abandoned stations throughout the system. In 1943 the stairs leading to this shelter were the site of a crowd crush that is the all-time worst disaster on any site that is now or ever has been part of the London Underground system -- 173 people were killed, many of them children. "Rails Through the Clay" says that this accident was hushed up at the time; in fact it was reported on in considerable detail, *but with no mention of where in London it had happened*. (On request I will email a reasonable number of copies of my transcription of the Times's articles; for copyright reasons it would be inappropriate to post them.) -- Mark Brader "A moment's thought would have shown him, Toronto but a moment is a long time and thought is a painful process." -- A. E. Housman My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Neill Wormwood:
As a matter of interest, was there any work done at Bethnal Green Nick Cooper: Abandoned due to persistent flooding. Not mentioned in RTTC. Did they really start a further tunnel there? or Oval? As I recall there might have been some done at Oval, but it was abandoned due to water ingress. Abandoned due to persistent flooding from unexepected water-bearing stratum (i.e. not the buried River Effra, as per some accounts). RTTC says "officially because water was encountered during tunnelling, but the drawing was marked 'abandoned - shortage of labour'". -- Mark Brader | "Red lights are not my concern. Toronto | I am a driver, not a policeman." | --statement made after collision, 1853 |
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If Clapham Town, Clapham North, and Clapham South are the public ones,
then where was Clapham Common? There are only 3 tube stations in clapham as far as I know Please quote enough text to retain context. In this case, doing so would also have given the opportunity to reread it, and see that I mentioned *Camden* Town. Clapham Common is the station between Clapham North and Clapham South; there is no Clapham Town station. -- Mark Brader "There are three rules for writing the novel. Toronto Unfortunately no one knows what they are." -- Maugham |
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On 7 May 2005 14:05:19 -0700, "lonelytraveller"
wrote: What I meant was, wasn't it possibly for them just to add the prefabricated steel tunnel rings into an already existing cavern? It would save a lot of effort. What are the chances of the floor of any cavern (even if it existed) being at the exact level that the tunnel needed to go, or no lower that some sort of bridging would be required? What protection would there be for the tunnel segments if the roof of the cavern collapsed? Bear in mind in the latter case that the ground clearance would be apprecaitively less than that for a tunnel through solid grond, makign it more vulnerable to bomb penetration. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
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I don't know, but given that, apparantly, the cavern is "just off the
running tunnel" I would have thought that this particular cavern was in the appropriate location. |
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lonelytraveller wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 7 May 2005:
If Clapham Town, Clapham North, and Clapham South are the public ones, then where was Clapham Common? There are only 3 tube stations in clapham as far as I know I think you misread what Mark wrote - he said "Camden Town", not "Clapham Town"! Clapham Common did indeed have a deep-level shelter built, you can see the tower for it still, and apparently it was used as accommodation for the hordes who came to the Festival of Britain in 1951, and then for those who came over on the Empire Windrush, and its successors. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 3 April 2005 |
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In article .com,
lonelytraveller writes What I meant was, wasn't it possibly for them just to add the prefabricated steel tunnel rings into an already existing cavern? It would save a lot of effort. Even if such a cavern existed (which I doubt), putting a line of steel rings across it isn't easy - they'll all fall down! You need to build a viaduct across it (as was done on line 7bis in Paris). Or are you suggesting that there's a natural tunnel-shaped cavern under East London? -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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On Sun, 8 May 2005, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article .com, lonelytraveller writes What I meant was, wasn't it possibly for them just to add the prefabricated steel tunnel rings into an already existing cavern? It would save a lot of effort. Even if such a cavern existed (which I doubt), putting a line of steel rings across it isn't easy - they'll all fall down! You need to build a viaduct across it (as was done on line 7bis in Paris). That sounds interesting. What sort of cavern was it? I have visions of a tunnel emerging into some vast underground space deep beneath Paris - probably lined with the bones of 19th-century hermits or something - and crossing it on some impossibly slender bridge before plunging back into the rock. Which would be cool. Or are you suggesting that there's a natural tunnel-shaped cavern under East London? I got the impression 'cavern' meant some sort of manmade hole related to the tube in some way. As in 'crossover cavern'. tom -- Transform your language. |
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In article ,
Tom Anderson writes You need to build a viaduct across it (as was done on line 7bis in Paris). That sounds interesting. What sort of cavern was it? Former quarry. I have visions of a tunnel emerging into some vast underground space deep beneath Paris - probably lined with the bones of 19th-century hermits or something - and crossing it on some impossibly slender bridge before plunging back into the rock. Which would be cool. It's something like that - apart from the bones, which are elsewhere - but the bridges are enclosed so you can't see anything. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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Apparantly the bethnal green cavern is close to the location of the
deep level shelter/bunker, nearer liverpool street, but past the sidings. I know that when I've gone that way, there is a small gap in the tunnel wall on the inside of the line in a location that approximately matches that description. The 7bis Cavern sounds cool though. Can you imagine being on the central line in a boring tunnel and then going over a huge viaduct in an underground cavern, that would be amazing. |
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On 8 May 2005 18:25:51 -0700, "lonelytraveller"
wrote: Apparantly the bethnal green cavern is close to the location of the deep level shelter/bunker, nearer liverpool street, but past the sidings. I know that when I've gone that way, there is a small gap in the tunnel wall on the inside of the line in a location that approximately matches that description. It doesn't sound feasible that, a) there would be such open access from the running tunnel to this supposed cavern, or b) that none of the standard works on the Underground in general and the Central in particular seem to contain any refernece to it existing in the first place. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
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None of the northern line ones mention that the old interchange
concourse at euston is still there below the modern one, but it is nethertheless - the books don't tell you everything, only the stuff thats obvious and everyone else knows |
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In article . com,
lonelytraveller writes Apparantly the bethnal green cavern is close to the location of the deep level shelter/bunker, nearer liverpool street, but past the sidings. I know that when I've gone that way, there is a small gap in the tunnel wall on the inside of the line in a location that approximately matches that description. There is an access and ventilation shaft somewhere around there. Hardly a cavern. The 7bis Cavern sounds cool though. Can you imagine being on the central line in a boring tunnel and then going over a huge viaduct in an underground cavern, that would be amazing. As I said; nothing to see. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
... In article , Tom Anderson writes I have visions of a tunnel emerging into some vast underground space deep beneath Paris - probably lined with the bones of 19th-century hermits or something - and crossing it on some impossibly slender bridge before plunging back into the rock. Which would be cool. It's something like that - apart from the bones, which are elsewhere - but the bridges are enclosed so you can't see anything. Spoilsports. I wonder if this was the inspiration behind the Christopher Lambert film Subway? -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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"lonelytraveller" a écrit dans le message de ups.com... Apparantly the bethnal green cavern is close to the location of the deep level shelter/bunker, nearer liverpool street, but past the sidings. I know that when I've gone that way, there is a small gap in the tunnel wall on the inside of the line in a location that approximately matches that description. The 7bis Cavern sounds cool though. Can you imagine being on the central line in a boring tunnel and then going over a huge viaduct in an underground cavern, that would be amazing. The Brussels métro station 'Porte de Halle' has a science-fiction theme, with what looks like half an old tram crashing through the walls (of the adjacent part where trams on Line 3 run underground). It was designed by a comic-book artist whose stories seem to carry on where 'Metropolis' left off. You should come and see it sometime... Regards, - Alan (in Brussels) |
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