Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

TfL's boast that bendy-buses are "better from every angle" overturned
by the Advertising Standards Authority.

Complaint:

Objections to poster, leaflet, regional press and transport
advertisements announcing the introduction of new bendy buses on
London''s 73 route.

a. The poster featured a photograph of the flexible part of a bendy bus
and was headlined "Route 73 is getting better from every angle". Text
under the headline stated "... Faster boarding - three door entry" and
"Extra space and comfort ... From Saturday 4 September 2004 Victoria -
King''s Cross - Stoke Newington/Seven Sisters".

b. The leaflet featured the same photograph on the front cover, beneath
the claim "Route 73 is getting better from every angle". The inside of
the leaflet featured a photo of a bendy bus; text stated "1 Pay before
you board To speed up journey times, cash is not accepted on the new
Bendy Buses. So you must have a ticket before you board. There are two
ways you can pay before you board: Roadside ticket machines ... [and]
Ticket outlets ... 2 Faster boarding - three door entry Passengers with
a Travelcard, Bus Pass, Freedom pass or a single journey ticket can
board through any of the three doors. Oyster Pre Pay users should board
through the front door ... Saver ticket holders must board through the
front door ... Wheelchair users should get on through the low-floor
central door which is fitted with a ramp 3 Extra space and comfort
Bendy Buses are designed to offer you greater comfort, with climate
control and enhanced security with CCTV. The buses are low floor which
means they are accessible for everyone."

c. The regional press advertisement featured the same photograph of the
flexible part of a bendy bus and was headlined "Our new bendy buses are
better from every angle". It featured the claims "Faster boarding -
three door entry", "Pay before you board" and "Extra space and comfort"
and stated "Route 73 will have bendy buses from Saturday 4 September".

d. The transport advertisement was displayed in buses and featured
identical claims to advertisement (a).

The complainants, who believed the 73 route was one of the most
heavily-used in London, objected to the claims:

1. "Faster boarding ...", because they believed most passengers had to
board through the front door and because increased numbers of standing
passengers near the doors of the bus made it difficult for others,
especially those in wheelchairs, to board and alight from the bendy
buses;

2. "Extra space and comfort ...", because they believed the bendy bus
services would run the 73 route less frequently and with fewer seats
than the Routemaster models they replaced, meaning that more passengers
were forced to stand for the duration of their journey and

3. "Route 73 is getting better from every angle", because they believed
some features of the bendy buses were detrimental to passengers.



Codes Section: 3.1, 7.1, 8.1 (Ed 11)


Adjudication:


The advertisers said the frequency of 73 buses had been reduced but
said the new service with articulated "bendy" buses had significantly
increased the capacity of the route during peak hours. They asserted
that, during the height of the peak period, bendy buses provided about
25% extra capacity compared with the Routemaster buses they had
replaced. The advertisers argued that that was particularly important
along some parts of the route, such as the Essex Road corridor in
Islington; they said more passengers were now able to board the first
bus that arrived at their stop during rush hours, rather than being
forced to wait for another bus because the first was full. The
advertisers said modern buses were more environmentally friendly
because they used greener fuels and were more fuel-efficient. They also
maintained that bendy buses were safer than Routemasters.

1. Complaint upheld
The advertisers maintained that the internal design of the buses and
the fact that there were three doors meant the bendy buses spent less
time at each bus stop than double decker buses with a single crew
member, which would have been the alternative replacement for the
Routemasters. The advertisers also pointed out that bendy buses were
fully accessible to the disabled, the elderly and those with young
children, shopping or luggage. They confirmed that the 73 was one of
the most heavily-used services on London''s bus network and said
accessibility was therefore paramount. The advertisers emphasized there
was a distinction between "dwell time", which they defined as the time
between the wheels stopping and moving again, and "boarding time",
which they defined as the time during which people were passing through
the doors of the bus. They sent extracts from a report on the dwell
time and time taken by passengers to board and alight from Routemasters
and bendy buses, which showed that the time taken for passengers to
pass through the doors of bendy buses was equal or shorter to the time
taken on Routemasters; the report also showed that bendy buses had a
shorter dwell time than Routemasters if 10 or more passengers boarded
but a longer dwell time than Routemasters when fewer than 10 passengers
boarded. The advertisers explained that dwell time for bendy buses was
longer than for Routemasters when few passengers were boarding because
passengers had to wait for the floors of bendy buses to be lowered
before they could begin boarding and, after the last passengers had
boarded or left the bus, the driver had to check that the bus was ready
to depart; those stages were not necessary on Routemaster buses.

Although it acknowledged that the advertisers had justified the claim
on the technical definition of boarding time, the Authority considered
that, from a consumer point of view, "faster boarding" would mean the
bendy buses spent less time waiting at bus stops to allow passengers to
get on and off. The Authority noted that, in certain circumstances, the
bendy buses had a longer dwell time than the Routemasters they
replaced. It concluded that the claim was misleading and told the
advertisers not to repeat it.

2. Complaint not upheld
The advertisers sent information about the seated and standing capacity
for bendy buses and Routemasters.

The Authority noted the bendy buses carried more passengers than the
Routemasters and offered fewer seats on each bus. It also noted the
claim was qualified in leaflet (b), which stated "Bendy Buses are
designed to offer you greater comfort, with climate control and
enhanced security with CCTV. The buses are low floor which means that
they are accessible for everyone". The Authority considered that the
advertisers had shown bendy buses offered more space than the buses
they replaced. It considered that "extra ... comfort" was a subjective
claim and concluded that it was acceptable under the Code as a
statement of the advertisers'' opinion. It did not object to the claim.

3. Complaint upheld
The advertisers responded to complainants'' concerns that the bendy
buses were less customer-friendly because they lacked a conductor. They
said conductors were not a feature of any modern bus and argued, in any
case, that there was no reduction in the levels of customer service
available. The advertisers said questions about the route that might
have been addressed to the conductor on a Routemaster were answered by
diagrams inside the bendy buses; they said relevant information on
fares and boarding was available at all stops on the 73 route, as well
as in leaflets, the press, and via face-to-face contact with bus staff.
The advertisers also said ticket inspectors along the route had been
given customer service training and added that bendy bus drivers were
provided with an on-board public announcement system that they were
encouraged to use to keep passengers informed.

The Authority considered that readers were likely to infer that the
claim "Getting better from every angle" was based on the three
subheading claims accompanying it on advertisements (a), (b), (c) and
(d): "Faster boarding - three door entry", "Pay before you board" and
"Extra space and comfort". Because it considered that the claim "Faster
boarding" was misleading, it considered that the advertisers had not
justified the claim "Getting better from every angle". It told the
advertisers not to repeat the claim.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

On 12 May 2005 07:23:30 -0700, wrote:

1. "Faster boarding ...", because they believed most passengers had to
board through the front door and because increased numbers of standing
passengers near the doors of the bus made it difficult for others,
especially those in wheelchairs, to board and alight from the bendy
buses;

Not my experience, except when the bus is full. The difference, of
course, is that it can crush-load while a Routemaster would leave
people standing. If they *are* crush-loading all the time (which
looks to be the case), the simple answer is that there are not enough
of them.

IMX, few people board at the front - most at the centre and rear -
very similar to my experience in Germany. Indeed, the ability to do
so has resulted in people boarding double-deckers at the rear, with
associated delays to those...

The advertisers also said ticket inspectors along the route had been
given customer service training and added that bendy bus drivers were
provided with an on-board public announcement system that they were
encouraged to use to keep passengers informed.

It would be nice if it was used to announce the next stop - I've only
heard this done once. It would also have been better if TfL had moved
on from their archaic insistence on the use of roller blinds, when the
rest of the country has moved onto the vastly superior LED technology,
and installed an integrated passenger information system with internal
LEDs showing next stop and route information.

The technology exists, and has done for *many* years. It's not even
that expensive, and it is well-proven.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

If route masters can't crush load, doesnt that mean they are better,
because the people inside arent crush loaded?

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Good. So when do we get to set fire to all the bendy buses and bring
back the routemasters?

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

On 12 May 2005 15:05:39 -0700, "lonelytraveller"
wrote:

If route masters can't crush load, doesnt that mean they are better,
because the people inside arent crush loaded?

No, because the passengers who aren't crush-loaded during the height
of the peak are instead left behind, assuming the same general
capacity is provided.

(I know one argument is that said capacity is *not* being provided,
but it isn't a pro- or anti-bendy argument, just one that TfL is not
providing enough buses/drivers on a given route).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

On Thu, 12 May 2005 20:59:24 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:
It would be nice if it was used to announce the next stop - I've only
heard this done once. It would also have been better if TfL had moved
on from their archaic insistence on the use of roller blinds, when the
rest of the country has moved onto the vastly superior LED technology,
and installed an integrated passenger information system with internal
LEDs showing next stop and route information.

Next stop announcements, if done sensibly (just the name, not the rest
of the doors opening/closing nonsense, which if required should IMO be
distinct tones common across all transport modes) would be excellent,
I agree. LEDs are vastly easier for the operator... are they better
for the user? TfL probably believes not, and I think they have a
point where main intermediate stops are listed. Of course, displays
inside the bus could be provided whatever the technology on the front.

Richard.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

lonelytraveller wrote:
If route masters can't crush load, doesnt that mean they are better,
because the people inside arent crush loaded?

The other (newish) double deckers seem to crush load downstairs whilst
upstairs is empty (people too lazy to walk up the stairs). Based on
this the bendys are better because there is no wasted upstairs

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Neil Williams:
It would also have been better if TfL had moved on from their
archaic insistence on the use of roller blinds, when the rest
of the country has moved onto the vastly superior LED technology...

Vastly?

Yes, an LED display is programmable and therefore wins on cost and
flexibility when it has to be changed. And multiple displays on
the same bus or train can all be made to change at once. But the
roller blind still wins hands down in terms of legibility, it seems
to me, and that's worth quite a bit.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Common sense isn't any more common on Usenet
| than it is anywhere else." --Henry Spencer

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Neil Williams:
It would also have been better if TfL had moved on from their
archaic insistence on the use of roller blinds, when the rest
of the country has moved onto the vastly superior LED technology...

Vastly?

Yes, an LED display is programmable and therefore wins on cost and
flexibility when it has to be changed. And multiple displays on
the same bus or train can all be made to change at once. But the
roller blind still wins hands down in terms of legibility, it seems
to me, and that's worth quite a bit.

I agree. An LED display would have to be *very* high resolution to
even approach the legibility of a blind.

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

On Fri, 13 May 2005 00:19:25 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:

Yes, an LED display is programmable and therefore wins on cost and
flexibility when it has to be changed. And multiple displays on
the same bus or train can all be made to change at once. But the
roller blind still wins hands down in terms of legibility, it seems
to me, and that's worth quite a bit.

I disagree - I find LEDs (as distinct from flipdot displays) far
easier to read from a distance than blinds due to the very high
contrast. Because they are operationally easier, as well, it is more
likely that they will be set correctly, which given that nobody is
pefect is a significant benefit.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

no, that's like saying that hydrochloric acid is a better confectionary
because it contains zero sugar

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

lonelytraveller wrote:
no, that's like saying that hydrochloric acid is a better
confectionary
because it contains zero sugar

I presume you were replying to my post (please include some context in
future)

How precisely is comparing two buses like comparing HCl to
confectionary?

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

asdf wrote to uk.transport.london on Fri, 13 May 2005:

I agree. An LED display would have to be *very* high resolution to
even approach the legibility of a blind.

All the same, there is no reason not to have the technology _inside_ the
buses. But then, London Transport and its successors always have been
several years behind the times - the sign which lights up when someone
presses the bell to request the next stop was in use in buses in Paris
in the early 1970s, and probably before, while they did not come into
use in London until the 1980s (I remember thinking "What a good idea!"
when I first saw the signs in Paris buses). And advertising/display
screens are only just coming into a few London buses now - they've been
in Paris ones for several years!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Route displays
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2005 00:19:25 -0000, (Mark Brader) wrote:


Yes, an LED display is programmable and therefore wins on cost and
flexibility when it has to be changed. And multiple displays on
the same bus or train can all be made to change at once. But the
roller blind still wins hands down in terms of legibility, it seems
to me, and that's worth quite a bit.


I disagree - I find LEDs (as distinct from flipdot displays) far
easier to read from a distance than blinds due to the very high
contrast. Because they are operationally easier, as well, it is more
likely that they will be set correctly, which given that nobody is
pefect is a significant benefit.

I very rarely see an incorrectly-set blind. Sometimes buses stop short
of the terminus listed, but in those cases it seems to be a decision
taken whilst I am already on board, so I can't see when the destination
changes - in that case, an internal LED would be useful.

I see little legibility difference between the high-contrast LEDs in use
in some cities, and the blinds used in London. However, I find that
operators tend to over-use the external LEDs, having them display
alternate information (e.g. terminus / intermediate stops), which I
think is extremely irritating - you have to stare at the display for
longer as a bus approaches to take in all the information. In that
respect, I find TfL blinds superior. I appreciate that some people may
prefer the possibility of "extra" information on the LEDs, but I just
find it annoying.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

The bendies seem to do a perfectly good job of setting fire to
themselves - they don't need us to intervene ......

:)

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Vastly superior LED technology?

Like when displays are invisible in bright sunlight, or the diodes burn
out (as on the Central Line trains) and in all cases the letters and
numerals are depicted in a clumsy, angular script? (And never mind the
fact that they often don't show up on photographs either.)

Roll-on (literally) roller blinds, and while we're at it let's return
to the proper colours of black and WHITE too!

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Neil Williams wrote:


It would be nice if it was used to announce the next stop - I've only
heard this done once. It would also have been better if TfL had moved
on from their archaic insistence on the use of roller blinds, when the
rest of the country has moved onto the vastly superior LED technology,
and installed an integrated passenger information system with internal
LEDs showing next stop and route information.

The technology exists, and has done for *many* years. It's not even
that expensive, and it is well-proven.

Neil


There was a bendy demonstrator on the 436 earlier this week. It looked
just like every other bus on the route except it had a very bright
orange LED destination display. I can't recall whether it listed
intermediate places like the roller blinds do, but what it did show was
clear and quite eye-catching.

Cheers,

Steve

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:12:39 +0100, Mrs Redboots
wrote:


when I first saw the signs in Paris buses). And advertising/display
screens are only just coming into a few London buses now - they've been
in Paris ones for several years!

You seem to be assuming that's a good thing. They had them years ago
in Sheffield, but nobody learned the lesson, it seems.

Route displays
 

On Fri, 13 May 2005 12:11:34 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

I see little legibility difference between the high-contrast LEDs in use
in some cities, and the blinds used in London. However, I find that
operators tend to over-use the external LEDs, having them display
alternate information (e.g. terminus / intermediate stops), which I
think is extremely irritating - you have to stare at the display for
longer as a bus approaches to take in all the information.

This was certainly the case in Leeds a few years ago (they may have
changed it since). The buses run by First had a dot matrix display up
front (I think it was reflective/mechanical, rather than LEDs), but
rather than remain static with the number/destination, they changed to
show the conceit of which "line" (i.e. basic route, but with obvious
variations) it was, as well. It was not unusual to have the wait
almost until the last minute to work out exactly what number an
approaching bus actually was.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Bonzo wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 14 May 2005:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:12:39 +0100, Mrs Redboots
wrote:


when I first saw the signs in Paris buses). And advertising/display
screens are only just coming into a few London buses now - they've been
in Paris ones for several years!

You seem to be assuming that's a good thing. They had them years ago
in Sheffield, but nobody learned the lesson, it seems.

Depends what they display - and even ads can be interesting the first
few times. Plus, if they generate enough revenue, they could help keep
fares a little lower.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

nMrs Redboots typed:
Bonzo wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 14 May 2005:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:12:39 +0100, Mrs Redboots
wrote:


when I first saw the signs in Paris buses). And advertising/display
screens are only just coming into a few London buses now - they've
been in Paris ones for several years!

You seem to be assuming that's a good thing. They had them years ago
in Sheffield, but nobody learned the lesson, it seems.

Depends what they display - and even ads can be interesting the first
few times. Plus, if they generate enough revenue, they could help
keep fares a little lower.

Personally, I get bombarded with enough advertising already. The real
need is for a decent display of next/this stop, with occasional updates
of destination and journey times to there and key intermediate points.
I've experienced all of this in Paris for the last month, and very
helpful it is, but I haven't noticed any advertising screens.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

I disagree - I find LEDs (as distinct from flipdot displays) far
easier to read from a distance than blinds due to the very high
contrast. Because they are operationally easier, as well, it is more

likely that they will be set correctly, which given that nobody is
pefect is a significant benefit.

What about the backlit (LCD?) type displays that are in use in other
parts of Europe? These give really superior contrast to either the
front-lit flipdot type or LEDs (which, IMO, always look too dark.)
Albeit with a slight drop of contrast when viewed at extreme angles.

And, as for roller-blind displays, they are completely unreadable
when they get dirty. Changing them all to a funny yellow colour in
the mid-90s didn't help. (Wasn't that about the time that the rest of
the continent started digitizing its displays?)

I agree. An LED display would have to be *very* high resolution to
even approach the legibility of a blind.

But we're talking about the bendy-buses here, not the Routemasters
they have (sadly) replaced. These usually only have one line of text
on the display, the destination, am I right? The types of digital
displays in use on buses all over Europe (and occasionally even in
the UK!) are more than adequate for this.

Anyway, Routemasters are meant to be modern buses, right? Printed
destination blinds look comically out of place.

Next stop announcements, if done sensibly (just the name, not the
rest of the doors opening/closing nonsense...

They do this in Berlin. But hang on, aren't we talking about a
_bus_ here? There are only doors on one side, so what's the
use of telling passengers which side to get out? ;-) Otherwise,
the direction could be indicated by an arrow on the internal
display that even foreigners could understand (oh hang on... they
haven't got those yet -- ooh, modern technology!)

...which if required should IMO be
distinct tones common across all transport modes) would be
excellent, I agree.

My experiences of the transport system in Vienna is that announcements
on all lines are recorded by the same announcer, who sounds as if
he's got something stuck up his ar*e. At least the Badner Bahn,
which also runs to Vienna, has a rather friendlier female voice.
Not to mention that the displays on the new-generation trams and
buses are brilliant too.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:06:52 +0100, Colin McKenzie
said:

Per seat, RMs win by even more. Per passenger, crush-loaded, the
bendis probably only use slightly more fuel than RMs.

I've not counted them, but I'm fairly sure that *any* of the double
deckers, including RMs, have more seats. Which would show that TfL's
claim that Bendies are more comfortable is a lie. Certainly I've
always got a seat on proper busses, and never on Bendies.

They also maintained that bendy buses were safer than Routemasters.
For occupants, maybe - fewer falls from platforms. The jury's still
out on their effects on cyclists and motorcyclists.

Idiots falling from the back of RMs is just Mr. Darwin at work. I
never fall off because I am capable of holding on to the pole.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

wrote:
And, as for roller-blind displays, they are completely unreadable
when they get dirty.

Really? I have never experienced an unreadable roller blind in London.
(alhough Occasionaly been on a 430 which has 74 on the rear blind)


Anyway, Routemasters are meant to be modern buses, right? Printed
destination blinds look comically out of place.

No, routemasters are very old buses which are currently being retired


Next stop announcements, if done sensibly (just the name, not the
rest of the doors opening/closing nonsense...

They do this in Berlin. But hang on, aren't we talking about a
_bus_ here? There are only doors on one side, so what's the
use of telling passengers which side to get out? ;-)


No one suggested telling people which doors to get out of. Some new
buses in London play very irritating announcements such as "Bus
stopping at next bus stop, please stand well clear of doors"; "stand
clear, doors opening", "doors closing" and something about and edge
being triggered.

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Anyway, Routemasters are meant to be modern buses, right? Printed
destination blinds look comically out of place.

No, routemasters are very old buses which are currently being retired

Whoops, I meant the new bendy-buses, not the Routemasters! Typo.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

David Cantrell wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

I've not counted them, but I'm fairly sure that *any* of the double
deckers, including RMs, have more seats. Which would show that TfL's
claim that Bendies are more comfortable is a lie. Certainly I've
always got a seat on proper busses, and never on Bendies.

The one thing I like about Bendies is that you can (on the ones I've
been on, anyway) sit behind the driver and still see out of the front
window, something you simply can't do inside a double-decker of any
description. Okay, you can see out the left front window of a
Routemaster, but not really on a modern one, as the seats are too low.

They also maintained that bendy buses were safer than Routemasters.
For occupants, maybe - fewer falls from platforms. The jury's still
out on their effects on cyclists and motorcyclists.

Idiots falling from the back of RMs is just Mr. Darwin at work. I
never fall off because I am capable of holding on to the pole.

Quite.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:
David Cantrell wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

I've not counted them, but I'm fairly sure that *any* of the double
deckers, including RMs, have more seats. Which would show that
TfL's
claim that Bendies are more comfortable is a lie. Certainly I've
always got a seat on proper busses, and never on Bendies.

The one thing I like about Bendies is that you can (on the ones I've
been on, anyway) sit behind the driver and still see out of the front
window, something you simply can't do inside a double-decker of any
description. Okay, you can see out the left front window of a
Routemaster, but not really on a modern one, as the seats are too
low.


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Chris! wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs


Indeed, and although I'm still quite capable of climbing the stairs, I
don't always want to!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

On 13 May 2005 10:34:43 -0700, wrote:

Like when displays are invisible in bright sunlight,

Not IMX, or not the newer types. By comparison, though, roller blinds
are vastly more difficult to read at night as they're far too dim
compared with the headlights.

or the diodes burn
out (as on the Central Line trains)

Maintenance issue. They last ages, and good designs of display will
allow a small number to be replaced at once on a swap-out basis.
Similarly, as one will see on many cheap and nasty local bus
companies, rollers get bad very quickly when not maintained.

and in all cases the letters and
numerals are depicted in a clumsy, angular script?

Er, no. Not in every case. As with all technologies, there are good
and bad designs.

(And never mind the
fact that they often don't show up on photographs either.)

That isn't relevant in the slightest to the travelling passenger.

We're missing some of the major advantages of LEDs, as well. The
flexibility allows for such things as scrolling calling points (like
the Oxford Tube coaches), and dynamically updated via points. The
latter is very useful on "cross city" services, and would be good
applied to places like Milton Keynes which have many such services.

I've also seen Belgian buses at termini with a very clever variation
on the theme - all blinds show a countdown to departure in minutes.
Very useful.

They are also a totally solid-state technology, so maintenance is
easy, and it's far less effort for the driver to ensure all are set
correctly.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

On 14 May 2005 16:07:02 -0700, wrote:

What about the backlit (LCD?) type displays that are in use in other
parts of Europe? These give really superior contrast to either the
front-lit flipdot type or LEDs (which, IMO, always look too dark.)
Albeit with a slight drop of contrast when viewed at extreme angles.

They do work, but suffer from very slow refresh rates, are more
expensive to maintain and less robust. They are used on some trains
(e.g. Networker Turbos), but seem to be a mid-late 90s fad and are
rare in new railway equipment these days.

And, as for roller-blind displays, they are completely unreadable
when they get dirty. Changing them all to a funny yellow colour in
the mid-90s didn't help. (Wasn't that about the time that the rest of
the continent started digitizing its displays?)

And many local bus companies in the UK. New Stagecoach buses have
been flipdot since the mid 1990s. That said, flipdot is a poor
technology, IMO - too many moving parts, and capable of wrong-side
failure (i.e. stuck showing wrong information). LED is far superior
in both these respects.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route displays
 

On Sat, 14 May 2005 15:04:42 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

This was certainly the case in Leeds a few years ago (they may have
changed it since). The buses run by First had a dot matrix display up
front (I think it was reflective/mechanical, rather than LEDs), but
rather than remain static with the number/destination, they changed to
show the conceit of which "line" (i.e. basic route, but with obvious
variations) it was, as well. It was not unusual to have the wait
almost until the last minute to work out exactly what number an
approaching bus actually was.

Poor design, then. The best approach, AFAIAC, is to have two rows of
text with a double-height number, the terminus in bold on the top line
and a via point (possibly scrolling or changing) below. If the via
point is redundant (e.g. an express service) double-height text could
be used.

The side/rear blinds should show at minimum number and destination. I
find the London style of showing only a via point on the side blind
quite annoying.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Mrs Redboots typed


Chris! wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs


Indeed, and although I'm still quite capable of climbing the stairs, I
don't always want to!

I am *just* able to climb the stairs. I sometimes _have_ to.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Neil Williams writes:
... New Stagecoach buses have
been flipdot since the mid 1990s. That said, flipdot is a poor
technology, IMO - too many moving parts, and capable of wrong-side
failure (i.e. stuck showing wrong information). LED is far superior
in both these respects.

Agreed -- and on top of all that, the dots are just too large, so it's
often necessary to cycle between 2, 3, or 4 displays to show all the
text they need to.

Here in Toronto, most of the TTC bus fleet now has flip-dots, which
generally replaced roller blinds in the 1980s; I sympathize with
the desire to cut costs, but I've always found the result highly
unsatisfactory. New buses in the last few years have LEDs, and
these are way better.

I saw a surprising failure mode the other day, by the way, on a bus
on the 320 Yonge night route. Its flip-dot front sign was showing the
correct route; I forget the exact wording, but it might have been
cycling between "ROUTE 320", "YONGE BLUE NIGHT", and "TO STEELES".
But the side sign on the same bus, which is controlled from the same
panel, was showing 32 Eglinton West. And it wasn't a case of the
flip-dots being frozen, either -- it was cycling between "32 EGLINTON
WEST" and "TO EGLINTON STN"!

Our subway [underground] and streetcar systems do still have roller
blinds, as their routes are a lot more stable; so did our trolleybuses
until they were withdrawn. The Scarborough RT, a light railway with
only one route, has no destination signs on the vehicles at all.
--
Mark Brader "'You wanted it to WORK? That costs EXTRA!'
Toronto is probably the second-place security hole
after simple carelessness." -- John Woods

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Neil Williams writes:
I've also seen Belgian buses at termini with a very clever variation
on the theme - all blinds show a countdown to departure in minutes.
Very useful.

Ah, Belgium. That reminds me of another advantage of roller blinds,
which they take advantage of in Brussels:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/...000/7016-2.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/...000/BRUSS1.jpg
http://www.xdinet.demon.co.uk/rail/pics3/BR7759.jpg
http://www.xdinet.demon.co.uk/rail/pics3/BR7796.jpg

Note the use of colour, enabling the route to be picked out more quickly.
The routes are shown on the system map using the same colours. Sadly,
their newest vehicles have monochromatic digital displays (LCD, I think).

In Toronto, the roller blinds used to look like this:

http://www.transittoronto.org/images/bus-8704-31.jpg
http://www.transittoronto.org/images/bus-8000-86.jpg

These would be 1960s or 1970s pictures. The yellow block with the route
number was easily spotted; the red block showed the route's two endpoints.
(However, in the last years before the change from blinds to flip-dots,
costs were reduced by changing to plain white-on-black.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Men! Give them enough rope and they'll dig
| their own grave." -- EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away from the
stop before yours! And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus journey
downstairs). And, as you so rightly say, not everybody is able to climb
the stairs, particularly when the bus is moving.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Mrs Redboots typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May 2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away from the
stop before yours!

I think staying downstairs for a short hop is fine. Clogging the lobby
or sitting on 'Priority Seats' when fit and spry, for miles and miles is
not.

And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus journey
downstairs).

You aren't one of the yoofertoday, who seem to be the worst offenders.


And, as you so rightly say, not everybody is able to climb
the stairs, particularly when the bus is moving.

True the point is that those that can, often don't.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Route displays (was: Route 73 - no longer better from every angle)
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On 14 May 2005 16:07:02 -0700, wrote:

What about the backlit (LCD?) type displays that are in use in other
parts of Europe? These give really superior contrast to either the
front-lit flipdot type or LEDs (which, IMO, always look too dark.)
Albeit with a slight drop of contrast when viewed at extreme angles.

They do work, but suffer from very slow refresh rates, are more
expensive to maintain and less robust. They are used on some trains
(e.g. Networker Turbos), but seem to be a mid-late 90s fad and are
rare in new railway equipment these days.

Actually Network SouthEast went through a real fad for this type of
displays in the 90s - as well as the Networker generation of trains
already mentioned, the Class 321 and 456 got them, and there were
several 'static' installations - examples I can remember include above
the ticket windows at Liverpool St and Cambridge (both of which became
illegible very quickly), above the platform entrances at Liverpool St
(in varying states of legibility but all still there) and on some
platform indicators (Barking seems to ring a bell). On Networkers they
were replaced with LCD displays, and on Class 456s they were replaced
with old-fashioned blinds (still in use)!

Route 73 - no longer better from every angle
 

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
Mrs Redboots typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 15 May
2005:

"Chris!" typed


Some of the new deckers have a CCTV camera peering out the front
window
with a display on the inside. Also, on all deckers you can see
out the
front windows upstairs but of course some people are unable to
get
upstairs

Some people are unable to get up the stairs. Far more are
unwilling.
There'd be little downstairs crowding if those who could go
upstairs
did...

The trouble is that if you are only going a couple of stops (and
the use
of passes encourages this, I'm afraid), it's hardly worthwhile
going
upstairs, since by the time you have, it's time to turn round and
come
downstairs again, given that bus drivers don't believe you want to
get
off if you aren't standing by the doors when the bus pulls away
from the
stop before yours!

I think staying downstairs for a short hop is fine. Clogging the
lobby
or sitting on 'Priority Seats' when fit and spry, for miles and miles
is
not.

And if you have a lot of shopping, or luggage, then
you don't particularly want to go upstairs (although if I'm coming
back
from the West End I do, since I wouldn't enjoy such a long bus
journey
downstairs).

You aren't one of the yoofertoday, who seem to be the worst
offenders.

In my experience everyone is as bad as each other at clogging up the
downstairs bit. If you try and get a bus from outside a suburban train
station at about 6pm the whole downstairs section is clogged up with
suites whilst the upstairs is empty