Steven wrote:
On 17 Jun 2005 08:24:13 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:
I use Electrostars regularly, and have never seen more than two bikes in one
carriage. And that's *very* rare. You can't expect then to waste space on
providing facilities that are rarely used but would detract from the comfort and
utility of the trains for their bread and butter work.

The answer is to have trains that are flexible use. Ie carriages that
will allow bulky luggage, prams, bikes, wheelchairs etc. or hods of
standing cattle^^^^^^^commuters during crush hour. There is nothing to
be lost and everything to be gained from such a configuration. Oh,
except that people might actually use the trains with a bit more than
just a small briefcase..

You can do all that on an Electrostar.

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts? Any online plans as to
the internal layout, and how many bikes will one take.

There is a limit, however.

Just the same as there is a limit to the number of people you can squeeze on.

Indeed. Space inside a train is not infinite. But it is a bit galling
to be told you cannot take a bike because there are already two on
board and over half the seats are empty (or the train is so choc-a-bloc
with peoples suitcases)

...d

"David Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts? Any online plans as to
the internal layout, and how many bikes will one take.

Each Electrostar will take (officially) two bicycles in the marked area for
bicycles, wheelchairs etc. (look for the cycle/wheelchair symbols on the
outside of the doors). Most trains are formed of more than one Electrostar
unit (for example, in the peaks Brighton trains are formed of four three-car
units, theoretically offering at least eight cycle spaces). In practise, on
most services out of the peak, no-one will object to additional bicycles
being parked in the vestibule areas. I, for one, have never had a problem
when travelling with a cycle.

Being both a cyclist and a railway enthusiast it is interesting to see the
arguments presented from both viewpoints. For quite a while now there have
been many complaints about the fact the the Electrostar and Turbostar (the
diesel version) devote one third of an entire coach to the disabled-access
toilet, the five (or less, depends on the specification by the train
operating company) tip-up seats that can be used as wheelchair spaces or for
people travelling with wheelchair passengers and the cycle stowage areas.
Critics regularly point out that there is no need for more than one
disabled-access toilet per train and that when trains are formed of more
than one unit there is an over-provision of such accommodation, where normal
seating could be provided. Nice in theory but how do you cater for flexible
train lengths using fixed-formation trains, where you have the regulatory
requirement to provide disabled accomodation, whether the train is a
three-car unit or a twelve-car formation?

In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

.... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an
entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,

A third??

The Electrostars and Turbostars that you travel on must be very different
from those that work everywhere else?



--
Bob

"Bob Wood" wrote in message
...
In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

.... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an
entire coach to the disabled-access toilet,

A third??

The Electrostars and Turbostars that you travel on must be very different
from those that work everywhere else?

Yes, there's such a significant difference between a quarter and a third,
isn't there? ;-)

It's the repeated incorrect references to 1/3 and 2/3 doors that tends to
make you think in thirds!

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:11:10 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

Yes, there's such a significant difference between a quarter and a third,
isn't there? ;-)

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the end
of the vehicle.

In ,
Jack Taylor typed:

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2
bays (or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were
discussing the area taken up by the disabled toilet, , which is the entire
area between one vestibule and
the corridor connection at the end of the vehicle.


How can it be that we are not discussing the size of the disabled toilet?
This part of the thread is in answer to and relates solely to your statement
that ".... there have been many complaints about the fact the the
Electrostar and Turbostar (the diesel version) devote one third of an entire
coach to the disabled-access toilet,"

If you want to add "the seating reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions and for bicycle stowage", you should have done so in the first
instance. But it still doesn't amount to one-third of an entire coach, does
it?

Your hole is big enough. Why don't you stop digging?

--
Bob

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which
is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the
end
of the vehicle.

On the SET 375s one of the seats in this area is labelled for the use of the
conductor. Compare this with the space (two-fifths of a coach) originally
provided in 4VEPs for the guard and the van which, after it stopped being
used for mail and parcels, was reserved for wheelchair passengers, and their
companions who had to stand, and bicycle stowage. It was probably a minority
of services on which a bicycle was actually conveyed, let alone more
bicycles than can be stowed in a 375, and the wheelchair passengers in a
4VEP had no access to a toilet.

Peter

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:43:38 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the end
of the vehicle.

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Assuming the Electrostar layout is the same as the Turbostar, the
space concerned consists of two seats facing two tip-up seats with a
movable table, with two and a bike space on the other side. The
density is not substantially more generous than elsewhere (though it
is slightly). Thus, it is not really fair to say that an entire third
(or quarter, or whatever) is completely given over to that function.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On 17 Jun 2005 09:21:50 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:

You can do all that on an Electrostar.

Where do I find one of these mythical beasts?

London Victoria Station.

There are lots there.

Indeed. Space inside a train is not infinite. But it is a bit galling
to be told you cannot take a bike because there are already two on
board and over half the seats are empty (or the train is so choc-a-bloc
with peoples suitcases)

It is annoying when people apply regulations that are designed for worst case
loading for a lightly loaded train, but they can't really spend a lot of time
second guessing how many people are going to get on down the line.