timescale wrong
 

timescale wrong
 

In message m, Roland
Perry writes

- excepting the fold-down seats on the Picc of course.

Which fold-up the moment you stop sitting on them...

Those will be the folding seats that the Piccadilly doesn't have then??
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In article .com,
writes
WRT
to the Circle Line trains, it appears that the Inner Platform at KXSP
allows for placement near a door in both directions that is not used
again for several stops.

Edgware Road (probably though not certainly) for an Inner Rail
(westbound in this area) train and Aldgate for an Outer Rail one.

That means that the bomb would be on the
righthand side (facing front) of the eastbound train

Yes.

and the lefthand
side (facing front) of the westbound train.

No, the right hand side.

How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

Reasonable. Trains are about 2 minutes apart in each direction, and one
in 4 is a Circle. So about 1 in 4 for any given arrival time.

But irrelevant ... *any* train heading east from KXSP will go to just
before Aldgate (apart from the one or two Moorgate reversers) and half
the westbound trains go to Edgware Road (the others turn right at Baker
Street). You're making the mistake of assuming there's something magical
about the Circle.

If you are at the top of the escalator and a Piccadilly train is
arriving at the station, would you know it before you got to the bottom
of the escalator?

Almost certainly not.

In other words, if you were at the top of the
escalator and a train was arriving or pulling in to the station could
you be certain to get to the train before it left?

Almost certainly not.

If you are familiar with the station, how far in advance of a train's
appearance do you know one is arriving? Is there a signal, is there a
breeze, or do you just hear it coming?

There's an indicator board, a breeze, and you can sometimes hear it. But
I'm not sure what your point is here.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In article m, Roland
Perry writes
How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

If the former, it's extremely unlikely. If the latter, it's very
likely. (Noting that perhaps one in six trains on the tracks are likely
to be Circle rather than Metropolitan or H&C).

More like one in four. The trains are supposed to be 2 minutes apart,
and there are 7 Circles with a circulation time of 50 minutes. So 7
trains in 25 are Circles.

In 30 minutes there are 15 arrivals on each line. Probably 4 on (say)
the Inner Rail are Circles. So the probability of there also being a
Circle on the Outer Rail at the same time as a given one of these is
4/15, and the probability of one of the four getting a coincidence is
roughly 1 - (1 - 4/15)^4, or about 0.7. [Yes, that simplifies some
issues.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article m, Roland
Perry writes
How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

If the former, it's extremely unlikely. If the latter, it's very
likely. (Noting that perhaps one in six trains on the tracks are likely
to be Circle rather than Metropolitan or H&C).

More like one in four. The trains are supposed to be 2 minutes apart,
and there are 7 Circles with a circulation time of 50 minutes. So 7
trains in 25 are Circles.

In 30 minutes there are 15 arrivals on each line. Probably 4 on (say)
the Inner Rail are Circles. So the probability of there also being a
Circle on the Outer Rail at the same time as a given one of these is
4/15, and the probability of one of the four getting a coincidence is
roughly 1 - (1 - 4/15)^4, or about 0.7. [Yes, that simplifies some
issues.]


This is why I love USENET and hate blogs :)

Here's what I'm still confused by... assume they really had separate
bombers for each bomb.... seems like a long time before boarding the
Piccadilly Line.

I'm guessing they synchronized the timers BEFORE they got on the
trains. Probably around 8:31 for 20 minutes or 8:36 for 15 minutes.
That would have been while they were all standing together on the KXSP
platform. That explains the Circle Line bombs.

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In message .com,
writes

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

As discussed in this newsgroup last week, the service had been suspended
on the Piccadilly line immediately prior to the bomb, due to a fire
alert incident at Caledonian Road. It is quite likely that 311 was the
first train through after a long gap in service.

--
Paul Terry

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In message .com, at
22:55:08 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:
That would have been while they were all standing together on the KXSP
platform.

fog of war alert

Which Kings Cross St Pancras Platform?

I've not read the news yet this morning, but last night the police were
suggesting they took the train from Luton, which means they would have
arrived at KX *Thameslink* Station [yet another different station, not
KX, Not StP, not the "Circle" shallow station, not the deep tube
Piccadilly station].
--
Roland Perry

timescale wrong
 

In message , at 23:55:25 on Tue, 12
Jul 2005, Steve Fitzgerald ] remarked:
- excepting the fold-down seats on the Picc of course.

Which fold-up the moment you stop sitting on them...

Those will be the folding seats that the Piccadilly doesn't have then??

Well, there you go. At least it's less misleading to mis-remember the
seats than to suggest they have luggage bins! It must be the Northern
that has the folding seats...
--
Roland Perry

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message .com,
writes

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

As discussed in this newsgroup last week, the service had been suspended
on the Piccadilly line immediately prior to the bomb, due to a fire
alert incident at Caledonian Road. It is quite likely that 311 was the
first train through after a long gap in service.


Excellent point. If that is the case then I suppose the intended
detonation point was somewhere further south like Piccadilly Circus or
Green Park. Piccadilly Circus is about 8 minutes out and you would be
leaving the station if you caught the 8:41 or entering the station if
you caught the 8:43 from KXSP.

Piccadilly Circus would be better for international recognition, but I
wonder what the track configuration is there v. Green Park. I mention
this because the other two blastswere both near junctions about 10
minutes out from KXSP.

--
Paul Terry

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

I am scrubbing all the speculation about how they could have
synchronized departures etc. and wondering if the targets were really
junctions.

The Circle Line trains look like they blew up right near junctions
(Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction). Given the unexpected
delay on the Piccadilly Line, it now seems reasonable that the perp
caught the first train available even though he had ample time to get
to the platform.

Had things been running smoothly, I'm guessing he was intending to
detonate around Piccadilly Circus (a junction and an internationally
renowned location) or Green Park (another junction). Which one was the
target depends on which train you caught (the 8:41 or the 8:43)
assuming you want a synchronized blast with trains that are near
Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction.

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

In article .com,
wrote:

Had things been running smoothly, I'm guessing he was intending to
detonate around Piccadilly Circus (a junction and an internationally
renowned location) or Green Park (another junction). Which one was the

Why do you think Piccadilly Circus or Green Park are junctions ?
They're not.

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

On 13 Jul 2005 07:01:11 -0700, wrote:

Piccadilly Circus would be better for international recognition, but I
wonder what the track configuration is there v. Green Park. I mention
this because the other two blastswere both near junctions about 10
minutes out from KXSP.

Thinking about this, could it therefore be that the bus bomb failed to
go off on time, and the holder of it was therefore panicking and
trying to return to base?

Once the perpetrator is identified, I wonder if he was seen on CCTV
boarding a train earlier on?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In article .com,
wrote:

Piccadilly Circus would be better for international recognition, but I
wonder what the track configuration is there v. Green Park. I mention
this because the other two blastswere both near junctions about 10
minutes out from KXSP.

Green Park layout, in diagrammatic form:
--------------------------
============
============
--------------------------

Piccadilly Circus:
--------------------------
============
============
--------------------------

------ running line
====== platform tunnel

Platform layout is from CULG (thanks Clive) - note both have two distinct
platform tunnels, this is not indicating a central island.

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

Nick Leverton wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Had things been running smoothly, I'm guessing he was intending to
detonate around Piccadilly Circus (a junction and an internationally
renowned location) or Green Park (another junction). Which one was the

Why do you think Piccadilly Circus or Green Park are junctions ?
They're not.

Wrong word. Lines converge at both places and that seemed to be
important on the two Circle Line blasts.

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

timescale wrong
 

Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
...
I've just received a document that suggest some tests are being done
today to see if using Wood Green to reverse is feasible. I have no more
details on what is planned though. Steve??

Not going to happen. Currently cooking up something a bit more exciting...

Still on tenterhooks wondering what that could be. It all depends on
how long the Picc will be out of service. If we're talking MANY months
(and I just checked, and KX Northern Line was closed for 16 months
after the fire, so my guess is we're looking at a closure of 1-2
years), then maybe the 'bit more exciting' would be to replace the
trailing crossover at King's Cross with a facing one and let westbound
trains reverse on the eastbound line south of KX. Assuming the tunnel
profile can take it (possible either way; I don't exactly remember)
they could probably get that up and running, at least hand-worked,
within weeks.

Eventually they'd have to put the trailing crossover back, both because
facing crossovers are frowned upon when not strictly necessary and
because it would be a total pain to get stock off the Northern to get
to Acton Works if it was still there, but it would allow the Picc to
operate between KX and Cockfosters in the interim.

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

In article .com,
wrote:
Nick Leverton wrote:

Why do you think Piccadilly Circus or Green Park are junctions ?
They're not.

Wrong word. Lines converge at both places and that seemed to be
important on the two Circle Line blasts.

I don't know why you think that either. On a quick and non-rigorous
check, I make it 34 interchange stations within the approx. area of
Zone 1, and 23 non-interchange ones. Both counts are probably low as I
couldn't be bothered to check where all the boundaries are. However using
those figures, if the bombers were working on a purely random basis,
it is likely that two bombs would explode at interchanges (p=0.51),
but not that three bombs would (p=0.37). Which is in fact what happened.

Also, if you mean that because lines have an interchange, a bomb on one
must affect the others, you can see a layout of Piccadilly Circus he
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltpicc.gif which shows
the lines are completely independent, whilst Green Park is infamous for
the long distance between lines at the interchange.

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself

Destination Driven plan? (was timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive)
 

In article , Nick Leverton
writes
I don't know why you think that either. On a quick and non-rigorous
check, I make it 34 interchange stations within the approx. area of
Zone 1, and 23 non-interchange ones.

Using the current map, I make it:

* 27 stations with interchange between lines
* 22 station on one line only
* 8 stations served by one LU line but also a mainline service
* 4 stations (Aldgate, Aldgate East, Edgware Road [subsurface], and HSK)
which are divergence points for subsurface routes
Euston Square, and High Street Kensington) which can be
* Euston Square, which is arguably a mainline interchange and arguably
not.

So of 62 stations, between 27 and 40 are "interchanges".

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

CCTV - timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On 13 Jul 2005 07:01:11 -0700, wrote:

Piccadilly Circus would be better for international recognition, but I
wonder what the track configuration is there v. Green Park. I mention
this because the other two blastswere both near junctions about 10
minutes out from KXSP.

Thinking about this, could it therefore be that the bus bomb failed to
go off on time, and the holder of it was therefore panicking and
trying to return to base?

Once the perpetrator is identified, I wonder if he was seen on CCTV
boarding a train earlier on?

Neil

There is also CCTV equipment with cameras in all the cars on the
newer trains. This could possibly provide vital information following an
incident, especially when that incident is on the train or following the
trail of a suspect. However, On the Northern Line, a large percent of the
equipment is faulty and has been for a long while with no urgency to
rectify it, so it's unlikely that it would be of any help.

Roger

CCTV - timescale fixed (was timescale wrong) w/ questions for Clive
 

In message ,
writes

There is also CCTV equipment with cameras in all the cars on the
newer trains. This could possibly provide vital information following an
incident, especially when that incident is on the train or following the
trail of a suspect. However, On the Northern Line, a large percent of the
equipment is faulty and has been for a long while with no urgency to
rectify it, so it's unlikely that it would be of any help.

Given the importance for public safety of working CCTV equipment on both
buses and tubes, I should think there is a good case for bringing in
legislation to severely punish companies and individual managers who
fail to keep such equipment in full working order.

--
Paul Terry