Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Dear All

I thought that you might the following of interest that I received from
the dreaded Metronet

It has long been known that the the Bakerloo Line is to the last for
new trains
What worries me is the the lack of clear plans for further
refurbishment work or improvements to the 1972 stock used on this
line.
What about plans plans for
-dot matrix in carriages
-improved ventilation

Any thoughts about
-other improvements that should be sort ?
-how passengers might campaign ?

Best wishes

Neil
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Cllr Nerva

We met briefly at the Labour Party Conference in Brighton. You had an
enquiry relating to the Bakerloo line rolling stock upgrade.

Metronet plans to deliver a Line Upgrade for the Bakerloo Line in 2019
with new rolling stock and signalling, a year in advance of the
required London Underground (LU) implementation date. This will
include a new fleet of 42 x 7 car trains. All the current signal
equipment will be replaced with ATP Distance To Go Signalling for the
length of line owned by LU. This will deliver the LU capability
enhancement requirements as specified by LU in the PPP Contract.

Our maintenance regime will ensure that the existing rolling stock and
signalling system has sufficient residual life to safely supply London
Underground with the required capability and service levels until the
latest implementation date of March 2020. The Bakerloo Line rolling
stock entered service in 1972 and was given a major overhaul and
modernisation between 1991 - 1995.

There are a number of projects ongoing to improve the performance and
appearance of the Bakerloo line which has been running well within the
benchmark set out by the PPP Contract. These projects have enabled LUL
to run additional trains during the peak and off peak services,
improving train availability for the travelling public. Deep cleans
and enhanced cleaning programmes for trains and stations, coupled with
Metronet's continued commitment to zero tolerance of graffiti have all
improved the public's perception of the cleanliness and condition of
assets on the Bakerloo Line.

Metronet continues to seek and target improvements to all aspects of
the Bakerloo line to improve asset reliability, ultimately allowing LU
to provide a faster and more efficient railway. Some of the current
initiatives in support of this aim a

· Overhaul of Bakerloo Line fleet doors to reduce failures in
service and support other initiatives in increasing overall line
capability

· Ongoing condition improvements to large sections of the
Bakerloo Line track ultimately to reduce failures but also to remove
noise complaints and prolong the life of the assets. Across the
Bakerloo, Central and Victoria lines we aim to renew 16.5km of track in
the 05/06 financial year, which come to an end 31 March 2006.

If you have any other questions or issues to raise, please do contact
me.

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On 16 Oct 2005 08:01:49 -0700, "cllr neil nerva - brent council -
london" wrote:

Metronet plans to deliver a Line Upgrade for the Bakerloo Line in 2019

So we might get it by 2025, if we're lucky.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Metronet plans to deliver a Line Upgrade for the Bakerloo Line in 2019
with new rolling stock and signalling, a year in advance of the
required London Underground (LU) implementation date.

A whole year? Wow!

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

I presume they must be getting another refurbishment in that time? The
Victoria/Bakerloo interior is pretty good, but it won't last another 14
years!

Information screens are a must I would have thought - and something to
be added now, not in 2019.

Jonathan

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

wrote:

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

47 years is barely run in. The previous Bakerloo stock is still going strong
in the Isle of Wight, almost 70 years old.

Chris

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

In message .com,
writes

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

I only find it funny in respect of the fact that many new cars are
barely run-in after 12 months, so why sell them then?

I generally buy cars that are no more than 12 months old, still have two
years' of warranty left, and often cost little more than half of the new
price. My last Renault Laguna continued to run for 10 more years with no
serious expenditure!

More fool the premature sellers, in my view.

--
Paul Terry

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On 16 Oct 2005 11:47:27 -0700, wrote:

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

The stock on the Met is already 45 years old, and will be older than
47 when it gets replaced.

If it ain't broke...

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On 16 Oct 2005 11:47:27 -0700, wrote:

Metronet plans to deliver a Line Upgrade for the Bakerloo Line in 2019
with new rolling stock and signalling, a year in advance of the
required London Underground (LU) implementation date.

A whole year? Wow!

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?



The A60 stock on the Met Line is 45 years old. Seems ok...

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On 16 Oct 2005 11:47:27 -0700, wrote:

Metronet plans to deliver a Line Upgrade for the Bakerloo Line in 2019
with new rolling stock and signalling, a year in advance of the
required London Underground (LU) implementation date.

A whole year? Wow!

At least they are aiming to complete early. Any line upgrade is a huge
undertaking and a year off the programme will be some achievement.

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

A car is not a train.

The main issue is that each line has to be upgraded and one line has to
be last. That is the Bakerloo and it was a LU decision to time it for
2019 not a Metronet one. There is only so much workload that both LU
and the Infracos can cope with in terms of supporting projects of this
scale while maintaining services. The involvement of Network Rail and
all of the integration issues surrounding signalling and control systems
as well as the rolling stock does not make the Bakerloo Line an easy
line to tackle.

I presume they must be getting another refurbishment in that time? The
Victoria/Bakerloo interior is pretty good, but it won't last another 14
years!
Information screens are a must I would have thought - and something to
be added now, not in 2019.

If there is another upgrade then it would involve the provision of
customer info displays etc. I shall need to check if one is included in
the BCV contract or not.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message .com,
writes

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

I only find it funny in respect of the fact that many new cars are
barely run-in after 12 months, so why sell them then?

I generally buy cars that are no more than 12 months old, still have
two years' of warranty left, and often cost little more than half of
the new price. My last Renault Laguna continued to run for 10 more
years with no serious expenditure!

More fool the premature sellers, in my view.

Electric trains don't have reciprocating internal combustion engines in
them shaking them to bits. There is no reason why they should have any
problem lasting the designed 40 years and beyond.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 16 Oct 2005 11:47:27 -0700, wrote:

I presume they must be getting another refurbishment in that time?
The Victoria/Bakerloo interior is pretty good, but it won't last
another 14 years!
Information screens are a must I would have thought - and
something to be added now, not in 2019.

If there is another upgrade then it would involve the provision of
customer info displays etc. I shall need to check if one is
included in the BCV contract or not.

There's nothing about refurbishment of the current fleet on the page of
Metronet's website devoted to their plans for the Bakerloo.
http://www.metronetrail.com/default....=1078650771772

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:45 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Electric trains don't have reciprocating internal combustion engines in
them shaking them to bits. There is no reason why they should have any
problem lasting the designed 40 years and beyond.

Indeed they don't - but good old 101685 Daisy (a 4-engined diesel
multiple unit) survived something like 44 years in front-line service
on the main line, and is now in preservation.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On 16 Oct 2005 11:47:27 -0700, wrote:

Does anyone find it funny that some people will religiously change
their car after 12-36 months, while these trains will be FORTY SEVEN
years old when they finally get replaced?

Absolutely. I take it you're laughing at the car buyers, not the
railway?

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:45 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Electric trains don't have reciprocating internal combustion engines
in them shaking them to bits. There is no reason why they should
have any problem lasting the designed 40 years and beyond.

Indeed they don't - but good old 101685 Daisy (a 4-engined diesel
multiple unit) survived something like 44 years in front-line service
on the main line, and is now in preservation.

Was it that long? In any case it needed a lot of TLC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

Information screens are a must I would have thought -
and something to be added now, not in 2019.

Why? The line has no branches, what information could people need?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:46:10 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Information screens are a must I would have thought -
and something to be added now, not in 2019.

Why? The line has no branches, what information could people need?

Presumably he means ones like on the Northern, which tell you what the
next stop is etc, rather than like on the Picc (which just tell you
where the train terminates).

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

In article . com, cllr
neil nerva - brent council - london writes
It has long been known that the the Bakerloo Line is to the last for
new trains

No, it isn't. The Central, Jubilee, and Northern are all behind it in
the queue.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:18:33 +0100, asdf
wrote:

Presumably he means ones like on the Northern, which tell you what the
next stop is etc, rather than like on the Picc (which just tell you
where the train terminates).

If money is being spent on displays, it'd be vastly better spent on
buses than trains.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:17:42 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

If money is being spent on displays, it'd be vastly better spent on
buses than trains.

Indeed. The information is available on a train to anyone capable of
looking out the window at the previous station. You can get lost on
a 'bus.

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Metromess have already upgraded the Bakingloo by adding extra squeaks,
rattles and general heat and noise to the line, I suppose you'd want Air
Conditioning as well, and a waitress bringing cooling drinks and
soothing your fevered brow. :))

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

www.waspies.net wrote:

Metromess have already upgraded the Bakingloo by adding extra squeaks,
rattles and general heat and noise to the line,

Yeah and they've taken the arm-rests off..... what more do you want, the
moon on a stick?

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Meeeee wrote:
Yeah and they've taken the arm-rests off..... what more do you want, the
moon on a stick?

I find the Victoria and Bakerloo lines by far the most comfortable of the
deep-level lines.

Raoul

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Presumably he means ones like on the Northern, which tell you what the
next stop is etc, rather than like on the Picc (which just tell you
where the train terminates).

What's wrong with the Auto announcements?
--
Joe Patrick
Railways Online - for GB railway news, information & photos
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Joe Patrick wrote:
Presumably he means ones like on the Northern, which tell you what
the next stop is etc, rather than like on the Picc (which just
tell you where the train terminates).

What's wrong with the Auto announcements?

The ones on the Piccadilly have the unfortunate side effect of switching
off the in-car destination displays, unless the driver resets them after
every announcement, which they often don't.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Meeeee wrote:
www.waspies.net wrote:

Metromess have already upgraded the Bakingloo by adding extra squeaks,
rattles and general heat and noise to the line,

Yeah and they've taken the arm-rests off..... what more do you want, the
moon on a stick?

Why did they do this, by the way? I now have to rub right up against
the fatty next to me, who spills into my seat. Should they not have to
pay 1 and a half fares to cover themselves?

D.

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Why did they do this, by the way?

This was discussed here back in November 2002 (yes, I thought they were
taken off more recently as well) - http://tinyurl.com/8t3l4
The answer given was "in recognition of the fact that not every one is
the same width, and to stop the little s***s who snap the old ones off
and start fighting with them from having a rather nasty weapon."
--
Joe Patrick
Railways Online - for GB railway news, information & photos
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Yes it is a very long wait for new stock, you would have thought they
would have ordered new stock the same time as the Victoria line or at
least the same time as the Piccadilly line stock. The reason that new
stock is not been ordered sooner is that the Bakerloo is seen somewhat
as a 'cinderella line' with it's passenger numbers a fraction of the
other tube lines. With all the problems that exist on some of the new
stock from the Central and Northern lines you do wonder whether when it
does have it's stock renewed it will end up being cascaded stock from
either Jubilee or Northern (Central stock apparently cannot be cascaded
without modification), I would not be surprised by then if some of the
nineties stock was being replaced due to reliability problems,
apparently a few years Tfl had severe worries about the long term
future of the Central line stock and replacement was even been
discussed and that is twenty years newer!!

If replacement is scheduled for 2019 also add a few years ie 2022/2023
as deadlines tend to come and go regarding new trains

Bakerloo Line Stock
 

Yes it has a very long wait for new stock, you would have thought they
would have ordered new stock the same time as the Victoria line or at
least the same time as the Piccadilly line stock. The reason that new
stock is not been ordered sooner is that the Bakerloo is seen somewhat
as a 'cinderella line' with it's passenger numbers a fraction of the
other tube lines. With all the problems that exist on some of the new
stock from the Central and Northern lines you do wonder whether when it
does have it's stock renewed it will end up being cascaded stock from
either Jubilee or Northern (Central stock apparently cannot be cascaded
without modification), I would not be surprised by then if some of the
nineties stock was being replaced due to reliability problems,
apparently a few years Tfl had severe worries about the long term
future of the Central line stock and replacement was even been
discussed and that is twenty years newer!!

If replacement is scheduled for 2019 also add a few years ie 2022/2023
as deadlines tend to come and go regarding new trains