On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:52:08 +0000, asdf wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:27:14 +0000, David Bradley
wrote:

Well that really won't do will it? So if you could kindly provide a listing
of the questions I have missed, I will address each and every one.

As you probably expected, I really can't be bothered.

Additionally, if it cannot be shown that *any* scheme involving
trolleybuses does any more to reduce congestion than *the same* scheme
but using bendybuses, and if congestion reduction is principal
objective, and if the costs of trolleybuses over bendybuses are large
(wires, substations, etc), then it's perfectly legitimate to drop any
further consideration of using trolleybuses.

There is nothing the same about using bendybuses vs. trolleybuses.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. All other aspects of a
solution for Uxbridge Road (dedicated lanes, demolition and road
widening, improved stop information, congestion charging, whatever)
would be the same, regardless of which of the two types of vehicle was
used.

There are
pros and cons to using both vehicles but on balance there are more advantages
in favour of trolleybuses on the *right* routes. Considering a very narrow
objective of congestion reduction then this can equally be achieved by
congestion charging along the Uxbridge Road corridor.

So you're saying that my conclusion fails because congestion reduction
is not (or should not be) the principal objective.

Nevertheless, scepticism has been expressed in this group that your
proposal will do any more to relieve congestion than the same proposal
but using diesel bendybuses - so if you feel you need an "alternative"
proposal to attack, fire away.

Congestion problems are only part of the equation for better quality of life
in this area of London. Where investment is put into any area then it needs
to have an identified return on the expenditure.

I shall leave it an open question as to whether replacing bendies with
trolleybuses provides better value than using the money in a way that
reduces congestion.

London Buses Ltd in its publication "Cleaner Air for London - London Buses
leads the Way" estimated that the cost of health care which results from
diesel bus air pollution equates to an equivalent of €0.20 per km. A different
report prepared at the Roma Tre University in Rome suggested the cost as being
as high as €1.20 per km. Using either figure helps justify the investment in
new trolleybus systems because it indicates that installing the electrical
infrastructure would result in significant financial benefits in reduced
health care costs. Certainly this is how the new Rome trolleybus system came
about.

No on-road transport scheme is going to reduce congestion, and any road based
public transport vehicle is going to have to spend a large part of its revenue
earning service stationary in traffic queues, in addition to the time spent at
stops picking up and setting down passengers, even with cash fare payment on
entry eliminated. In these circumstances trolleybuses win hands down in
respect of the ride quality, improved external environmental impact locally,
low energy consumption, identifiable operator commitment, level boarding with
100% level low floors, less maintenance costs and a longer life. Trolleybuses
also have a proven model shift appeal.

In contrast diesel bendibuses are noisy, vibrating, fume-belching and
fuel-wasting monstrosities. They also have an image problem that is hard to
shake off for modal shift.

The only hope of impacting at all on road traffic congestion in this area is
to improve the off-road public transport network (heavy rail, light rail and
if appropriate busways [preferably electric], and improve utilization of the
existing rail network. By all means tinker with congestion issues like
restricting certain vehicles on particular days and introducing benefits for
high occupancy vehicles [cars with 2 or more passengers] and anything else you
may car to think about but unless the Uxbridge Road becomes completely
pedestrianised, then any extra capacity will be quickly absorbed.

However, this thread is not about the merits of one type of bus against
another; it is more about the folly of building a tramway along the Uxbridge
Road corridor which, far from improving congestion problems, will actually
make things a lot worse and certainly change the character of the area into an
urban jungle.

David Bradley