Perhaps those in the know on this forum can explain to me the purpose
of some buses (and I have seen them on routes 28 and 295, both operated
from Westbourne Park Garage) this week having the word "EXTRA" in the
ultimate destination panel.

Obviously, I understand the concept of "extra" buses, but surely this
is something that would be reflected in the running number, and of
interest to bus inspectors on the route, but of no interest or
relevance to passengers who want to know where the bus is actually
going!

So, when "via points" are finally abolished from all London buses, as
the disabled lobby seems to be achieving, some buses will merely have
a route number on display and the word "EXTRA", thus providing no
useful information for the hapless ordinary passenger. What a way we
have come from London's buses offering an unparallelled wealth of route
information.

Marc.

" wrote:

So, when "via points" are finally abolished from all London buses, as
the disabled lobby seems to be achieving,

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, but why on earth would the disabled
lobby want to eliminate the "via" text from a destination sign? I could see a
bus company maybe wanting to simplify signage and having some marginally more
flexibility, but the disabled?

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote:

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, but why on earth would the
disabled
lobby want to eliminate the "via" text from a destination sign? I could
see a
bus company maybe wanting to simplify signage and having some marginally
more
flexibility, but the disabled?

As the totally blind can see neither the 'via' points nor the destination,
surely it is discriminatory for anyone to know where the bus is going?

Chris

"Chris Read" wrote:

As the totally blind can see neither the 'via' points nor the destination,
surely it is discriminatory for anyone to know where the bus is going?

Thank you for pulling my leg. It was a little awkward with one shorter than the
other...

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote in message
...
" wrote:

So, when "via points" are finally abolished from all London buses,
as
the disabled lobby seems to be achieving,

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, but why on earth would the
disabled
lobby want to eliminate the "via" text from a destination sign? I
could see a
bus company maybe wanting to simplify signage and having some
marginally more
flexibility, but the disabled?


I suspect the argument is that those disabled with poor eyesight will
find it easier to read a destination in a large font rather than
having to try and read a smaller font which is necessitated by having
1 or more via points listed in the same space. Plus, dont forget that
disabled does not necessarily mean wheelchair bound, all wheelchair
bound people can be classified as disabled, but not all disabled are
wheelchair bound.

In article ,
Matt Wheeler wrote:
all wheelchair
bound people can be classified as disabled,

This is not true for many real situations - even when you exclude
"rag week" - and sensible definitions.

--
RIP Morph (1977-2005)

In message , Matt Wheeler
writes
I suspect the argument is that those disabled with poor eyesight will
find it easier to read a destination in a large font rather than
having to try and read a smaller font which is necessitated by having
1 or more via points listed in the same space.
Yes I suspect that as well.

The problem is as another poster has pointed out, the logic is that if a
person with certain type of disability can't do something (in this case
read a small "via" point), then *nobody* is allowed to do it.

The upshot of this is the truly stupid situation where we now have 13s
saying simply "Aldwych" or "Golders Green" [1] with no indication of the
very important places they serve en route.

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of "via"
points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul C?)
confirm or deny this?

Plus, dont forget that
disabled does not necessarily mean wheelchair bound, all wheelchair
bound people can be classified as disabled, but not all disabled are
wheelchair bound.
I would never have assumed that it did. But I can't see the relevance
of that to this to the argument. Indeed, providing consideration for
wheelchair use can sometimes *disadvantage* other passengers (eg
reducing the number of seats and stanchions and increasing the space
between those stanchions).


[1] Interestingly with the word "Station" beneath in lower type!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote in
:


That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of "via"
points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul C?)
confirm or deny this?


I understand the argument against via points is that they are confusing as
the bus may already have gone past that point and/or they may be listed in
the wrong order.

It is a valid argument but I don't think it outweighs the usefulness of via
points to those with some elementary geographic knowledge.

In article 34,
(David Jackman) wrote:

Ian Jelf wrote in
:

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of
"via" points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul
C?) confirm or deny this?

I understand the argument against via points is that they are
confusing as the bus may already have gone past that point and/or
they may be listed in the wrong order.

It is a valid argument but I don't think it outweighs the usefulness
of via points to those with some elementary geographic knowledge.

Doesn't this discussion highlight the need for TfL to get itself into
the 21st century and start using electronic destination information like
the rest of the country? Then via points can be updated en route to
remove ones that have been passed.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:02:54 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Matt Wheeler
writes
I suspect the argument is that those disabled with poor eyesight will
find it easier to read a destination in a large font rather than
having to try and read a smaller font which is necessitated by having
1 or more via points listed in the same space.
Yes I suspect that as well.

The problem is as another poster has pointed out, the logic is that if a
person with certain type of disability can't do something (in this case
read a small "via" point), then *nobody* is allowed to do it.

The upshot of this is the truly stupid situation where we now have 13s
saying simply "Aldwych" or "Golders Green" [1] with no indication of the
very important places they serve en route.

That said, I've not seen an official statement that the removal of "via"
points is being done for this reason. Can anyone else (Paul C?)
confirm or deny this?

this has been debated on various Yahoo groups at some length. The
official explanation is that in order to comply with the DDA regulations
TfL have decided the best way to do that is to make the ultimate
destination and route number as large as possible. They also have to be
at the bottom of the blind box and beside one another. This obviously
changes the typical double deck blind design as the ultimate is
typically at the bottom and the via points and number are above.

No one can explain - other than TfL having taken a policy decision - why
via points have to go. The obvious comment is that the font size cannot
be as large as the ultimate but I have to say "who cares" if the
information that has deemed to be of *most* value is in the right size.
I guess someone, somewhere would argue "discrimination" if the font
sizes differed although this has to happen where the ultimate
destination requires a "qualifying point" to correct identify where in a
locality the bus terminates. It is worth noting that alternative
displays which were DDA compliant and retained via points were developed
by First London and shown to DFT reps and TfL. They were rejected. It is
also worth noting that Lothian Buses - who have comprehensive blind
displays not unlike London ones - do have a DDA compliant display that
retains all the features of the old blinds. Now someone go and work
that out because I can't.

I find the whole thing immensely depressing. I don't hold with the
argument about via points having been passed en route and being
confusing. I would agree that London's displays are typically very
informative and helpful. However it seems they are to be dumped in the
dustbin of old LT design that is no longer deemed necessary for today's
modern world.

One other aspect is that despite the furore London has had single line
displays on buses for many years and no one has noticed. Have a look at
the latest Buses Focus about Dennis Darts and see how many London
versions have a single line destination with no via points. You might be
surprised.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!