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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Yes. For me, it's over £100 cheaper to just 'pay as you go' with an Oyster pre-pay card. Good grief. I've done a little work to help you calculate your own savings by going Oyster and ditching the travelcard altogether... try: http://www.mediauk.com/content/oyste...calculator.muk Naturally, it's not always going to be entirely accurate: but I'd be interested in your thoughts. James |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
"james007" wrote in message
oups.com... I've done a little work to help you calculate your own savings by going Oyster and ditching the travelcard altogether... try: http://www.mediauk.com/content/oyste...calculator.muk Naturally, it's not always going to be entirely accurate: but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Could you perhaps cater for those of us who do not travel into Zone 1, James? My home-work journey is Z2-3 only. Thank you! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 2 Jan 2006 13:18:25 -0800, "james007"
wrote: Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard? Yes. For me, it's over £100 cheaper to just 'pay as you go' with an Oyster pre-pay card. Good grief. Your research isn't particularly earth-shattering as for many years, Period Travelcards haven't been particularly good value compared to single tickets. Unless you changed mode a lot, it often made little sense to get a Period Travelcard. In recent years, with the push for Oyster, single fares have been static or going down, whereas Travelcards have been increasing at inflation or slightly more than that. This has led to single fares (with Oyster) being even more competitive compared to a Travelcard. The way things are going, I won't be surprised to see the slow death of the Period Travelcard over the next few years. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard? Yes. For me, it's over £100 cheaper to just 'pay as you go' with an Oyster pre-pay card. Good grief. Your research isn't particularly earth-shattering as for many years, Period Travelcards haven't been particularly good value compared to single tickets. Unless you changed mode a lot, it often made little sense to get a Period Travelcard. In recent years, with the push for Oyster, single fares have been static or going down, whereas Travelcards have been increasing at inflation or slightly more than that. This has led to single fares (with Oyster) being even more competitive compared to a Travelcard. The way things are going, I won't be surprised to see the slow death of the Period Travelcard over the next few years. Yes it will be replaced with monthly arrears billing. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
TKD wrote:
Your research isn't particularly earth-shattering as for many years, Period Travelcards haven't been particularly good value compared to single tickets. Unless you changed mode a lot, it often made little sense to get a Period Travelcard. In recent years, with the push for Oyster, single fares have been static or going down, whereas Travelcards have been increasing at inflation or slightly more than that. This has led to single fares (with Oyster) being even more competitive compared to a Travelcard. The way things are going, I won't be surprised to see the slow death of the Period Travelcard over the next few years. Yes it will be replaced with monthly arrears billing. How does the 1/3 discount for students affect the comparisons? Admittedly my heavy travelling on all modes, combined with the uselessness of Pre Pay for National Rail, makes the point a little academic. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
james007 wrote: Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard? Yes. For me, it's over £100 cheaper to just 'pay as you go' with an Oyster pre-pay card. Good grief. I've done a little work to help you calculate your own savings by going Oyster and ditching the travelcard altogether... try: http://www.mediauk.com/content/oyste...calculator.muk Naturally, it's not always going to be entirely accurate: but I'd be interested in your thoughts. For people who use National Rail as part of their commute, is it ever accurate? Also, some kind of reload / restart link might be nice, since the Back button appears not to work from the results page. -- Larry Lard Replies to group please |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
The following is a hypothetical scenario, since I do not have Oyster of
any sort. If I have Oyster pre-pay, and I get on NR at Wandsworth Town (no barriers of any sort) and emerge at Waterloo, 99.99% time it will be a free journey, since rarely do I see ticket collectors there. If, On the 0.001% occasion there is a ticket inspector there, what will he do? If I have a valid credited Oyster card, presumably he will have to find a way of debiting it for the correct fare which, through no fault of mine, I had been unable to do at Wandsworth Town. Answers please! Marc. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
That's what I suspected - so how does Ken and his publicity machine get
away with advertising Oyster as the answer to everyone's problems? Even for those who only OCCASIONALLY use South West Trains, they are being deprived of the very flexibility that the Travelcard (which I have to confess is the ONE thing Ken introduced in his previous guise as G.L.C. Leader I regard as a great success) has given us for the last 20 years or so. Is Oyster also not available on National Rail between West Brompton and Earl's Court? What about a journey starting at Richmond and ending at Stratford but via the North London Line? If none of these are possible, then the whole thing is a massive con. I have no intention of taking an Oyster card if these flexibilities are prevented. Even if there is a marginal price saving over other tickets. Like another contributor to this forum, I shall be sticking ton One Day Travelcards. I also have quite a few packs of Bus Saver tickets which I bought in 2004 before the last price increase! Marc. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Is Oyster also not available on National Rail between West Brompton and Earl's Court? Not only is it not available, there isn't a rail service. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia!
Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other? Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason) installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason, then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at our expense, no doubt)? On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey? Marc. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within those zones? It would have the same validity on Oyster as on paper. No difference. But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on it? You can't put one day travelcards on it. Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other? Because they have to accept the travelcards under their existing relationship with London Underground but do not have to accept prepay unless they decide to. And they have decided not to. Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason) installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason, then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at our expense, no doubt)? He has offered to pay for installation. They have still said no. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
TKD,
Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what the TFL website says:- "During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will refund the difference. " I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on Prepay? Marc. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what
the TFL website says:- "During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will refund the difference. " I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on Prepay? Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, " wrote:
TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia! Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other? Travelcards are legally protected products and existed at the time of privatisation. Therefore the TOCs have no choice and neither does TfL - the product exists and is protected. Where the ticket medium changes then the party proposing the change to the medium has to pay. TfL has done this to the extent that it is required to do - i.e. at its own outlets and those which can be reasonably be said to be part of the LU network e.g. Richmond. However the introduction of Oyster has not removed the possibility of using magnetic tickets and this is why the TOCs can continue to issue these tickets. However they are also required to accept the new Oyster format for Travelcard and for this function TfL funded hand held readers for TOC revenue inspection staff. Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason) installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason, then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at our expense, no doubt)? The real problem with the One Day product is that TfL has chosen to implement this facility using Pre-Pay and Capping. While this is fairly elegant in theory it is, in my view, fairly awful in its execution. By opting to use a new product and a new concept it causes One Day (capped) tickets to be outside the scope of the Travelcard agreement. This gives the TOCs the perfect opportunity to escape the adoption of Pre Pay. Worse the use of capping also effectively demands the adoption of a unified zonal fares scheme in order for the scheme to be equitable. If you simply applied capping to the current fares scales it would be almost impossible to administer on NR territory given the much higher fares at certain times and then the greater complexity of off peak offers. TfL have offered to fund the introduction of validators, targets on gates and ticket machine mods. The TOCs are not convinced that their revenue base will not be adversely affected and as revenue and some costs are all they control you can understand why. If zonal fares are ever adopted by the TOCs you can be sure there will be huge compensation payments sitting in the background. It's all a mess as far as I can see and was not what was intended when I was involved with Prestige. The TOCs were unconvinced then and I don't see that anything has changed to make them any more enthusiastic now. TfL's publicity on Oyster is woeful and it is no wonder that so many people are hopelessly confused as to what product is valid where. Even the most basic rules of the card and its products are not explained in any of the published fares documents that I have seen. The constant references to Day Travelcards in connection with Pre-Pay is also wrong and is something that TfL have already been clobbered about by the ASA. Why they continue to use the same terms in official publications I do not know. On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey? You would have an unresolved journey as you would be unable to validate your ticket on exit at the intermediate station. If a revenue inspector caught you then you would be travelling with an invalid ticket as prepay is not valid for that journey via National Rail or at the intermediate point. As someone else has said it is a simple case of not having a valid ticket - there is nothing unusual in this as there are plenty of examples of tickets not being valid at particular places at particular times. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, " wrote: TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia! Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and converted it to Oyster, that would be vaild on National Rail within those zones? But not if I have an Oyster but buy 1-day Travelcards on it? Not only is that illogical but beyond my comprehension - why are TOCs willing to accept one form of Oyster but not the other? Travelcards are legally protected products and existed at the time of privatisation. Therefore the TOCs have no choice and neither does TfL - the product exists and is protected. Where the ticket medium changes then the party proposing the change to the medium has to pay. TfL has done this to the extent that it is required to do - i.e. at its own outlets and those which can be reasonably be said to be part of the LU network e.g. Richmond. However the introduction of Oyster has not removed the possibility of using magnetic tickets and this is why the TOCs can continue to issue these tickets. However they are also required to accept the new Oyster format for Travelcard and for this function TfL funded hand held readers for TOC revenue inspection staff. Or is the answer that they simply haven't (for whatever reason) installed Oyster readers at all stations? And, if that is the reason, then why doesn't the munificent Ken pay for them to be installed (at our expense, no doubt)? The real problem with the One Day product is that TfL has chosen to implement this facility using Pre-Pay and Capping. While this is fairly elegant in theory it is, in my view, fairly awful in its execution. By opting to use a new product and a new concept it causes One Day (capped) tickets to be outside the scope of the Travelcard agreement. This gives the TOCs the perfect opportunity to escape the adoption of Pre Pay. Worse the use of capping also effectively demands the adoption of a unified zonal fares scheme in order for the scheme to be equitable. If you simply applied capping to the current fares scales it would be almost impossible to administer on NR territory given the much higher fares at certain times and then the greater complexity of off peak offers. TfL have offered to fund the introduction of validators, targets on gates and ticket machine mods. The TOCs are not convinced that their revenue base will not be adversely affected and as revenue and some costs are all they control you can understand why. If zonal fares are ever adopted by the TOCs you can be sure there will be huge compensation payments sitting in the background. It's all a mess as far as I can see and was not what was intended when I was involved with Prestige. The TOCs were unconvinced then and I don't see that anything has changed to make them any more enthusiastic now. TfL's publicity on Oyster is woeful and it is no wonder that so many people are hopelessly confused as to what product is valid where. Even the most basic rules of the card and its products are not explained in any of the published fares documents that I have seen. The constant references to Day Travelcards in connection with Pre-Pay is also wrong and is something that TfL have already been clobbered about by the ASA. Why they continue to use the same terms in official publications I do not know. On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate station, what would happen? What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay upon exit? Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey? You would have an unresolved journey as you would be unable to validate your ticket on exit at the intermediate station. If a revenue inspector caught you then you would be travelling with an invalid ticket as prepay is not valid for that journey via National Rail or at the intermediate point. As someone else has said it is a simple case of not having a valid ticket - there is nothing unusual in this as there are plenty of examples of tickets not being valid at particular places at particular times. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! Thanks for a sensible explanation of pre pay Oyster wrt National Rail. Other potential difficulties must be various Railcards, with their huge variety of rules, and First Class availability on some routes? Paul |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Paul Corfield,
Many thanks for the explanation. As a lawyer, used to some pretty complicated concepts, I still find the whole Oyster thing mind-boggling, and the more I learn about it (to say nothing of having to explain to some jobsworth where I got on and where I am going to, should the reader have failed to register my Oyster, and the traceability of my journey, which is nobody's business but mine) the less I want to have to do with it. I'll still be buying One Day Travelcards at my corner shop for the foreseeable future. Much simpler all round - and simple proof of payment for the taxman. Marc. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, "
wrote: TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia! I don't know why pre-pay can't be used on NR between West Brompton and Olympia. Tube paper singles are valid. I wonder what makes the NLL/WLL "special" compared to all the other NR routes where Tube singles are valid (where pre-pay is almost always valid too). Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and converted it to Oyster, I don't believe you can "convert" a ticket in this way... On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate station, what would happen? It's at least arguable that you could legally travel from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street, then take another train from there to Seven Sisters (assuming you can do that without going through the barriers at Liverpool St), using pre-pay. However, it's explicity not valid at intermediate stations (between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters). What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay upon exit? You could expect to pay a Penalty Fare if tickets are being inspected at the station you leave through. Also, you wouldn't be able to "touch out" and complete the pre-pay journey, so you might also be charged a penalty for the unresolved journey (it was mentioned in this group some time ago that TfL intended to make this charge equivalent to the full Z1-6 pre-pay fare, though there have been no reports of this actually being imposed yet). Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey? It will no doubt enrage you to learn that if you get on at Liverpool Street but don't travel all the way to Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow, a £5.00 penalty is automatically deduced from your pre-pay balance. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote: Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs would either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines similar to those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents). I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far easier to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting standards for retailing. The TOCs and their chosen suppliers have simply opted not to spend the money (that TfL was ready to provide) or enter into the appropriate agreements to allow software to be written that could interface with a generically supplied read / write Oyster target. After all the ticket machine simply has to recognise a card is present, accept the sale requirement, encode it to the card, receive confirmation that the transaction is complete on the card and then complete its own transaction. Easy stuff. Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think I had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains. These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were both people who could see the opportunities the technology would provide and how it linked to other things that were happening in the wider IT, Internet and retail markets. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 3 Jan 2006 16:01:05 -0800, " wrote:
Paul Corfield, Many thanks for the explanation. Not a problem although even I am beginning to lose the will to live and I have a staff pass. The level of public confusion is not acceptable. As a lawyer, used to some pretty complicated concepts, I still find the whole Oyster thing mind-boggling, and the more I learn about it (to say nothing of having to explain to some jobsworth where I got on and where I am going to, should the reader have failed to register my Oyster, and the traceability of my journey, which is nobody's business but mine) the less I want to have to do with it. I'll still be buying One Day Travelcards at my corner shop for the foreseeable future. Much simpler all round - and simple proof of payment for the taxman. When the concept is boiled down to its basic elements and some examples of how things like validities and capping work are provided it is not that hard. I do think people need to be able to work it through for themselves in order to have confidence in the underlying systems and processes. I don't really see how that is being achieved or will be achieved. It is, however, necessary. You're obviously entitled to your view about privacy but I have no real issue about that information being captured by TfL. Perhaps that's because I know how the system was designed and partly because I work for TfL and can't see how they can use the information in some malign way. I think Oyster is a good product and that Londoners will accept it once the current obstacles to its effective use are removed. It just needs more work and a better response from the staff who administer it. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
In message , Paul Corfield
writes I think Oyster is a good product and that Londoners will accept it once the current obstacles to its effective use are removed. I agree, but the fact remains that the majority of London commuters use surface rail rather than exclusively TfL services, and many are people (like me) who work mainly from home and need to commute only once or twice a week or less. Until Oyster is properly accepted for all surface rail journeys in the capital, it will for many of us remain an interesting but irrelevant exercise. -- Paul Terry |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:11:26 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote: If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster, rather than Ken/TfL. The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant. This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? The standards problem has been in the railway press - probably in Modern Railways and elsewhere. Oh and what standards? Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation ones: http://www.itso.org.uk If the TOCs were to go ahead and fit Oyster, there could be a problem if and when ITSO-compliant cards are in widespread use everywhere else. People arriving in London would discover that the card they use to buy transport tickets, in libraries or for school dinners (etc) couldn't be used in London, and Londoners would find they couldn't use their Oyster cards on National Rail ITSO systems outside London. Fitting duplicate systems at every station would be wasteful, but Oyster won't be used beyond London, and so the railways are meant to use inter-operable ITSO cards which would work with everyone else's systems. Is Oyster technology proprietory, or can anyone get the specs and make their own kit if they want? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
"Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message
... On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:11:26 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote: If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster, rather than Ken/TfL. The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant. This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? The standards problem has been in the railway press - probably in Modern Railways and elsewhere. Also mentioned by the mayor here http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=12553. I can see where the TOC's are coming from on this issue, it seems Livingston is insisting they pay for the 'retailing and validation capability' of oyster installation in stations when the dft is developing (presumably still a work in progress) a separate system for the rest of the UK, which they will be installing a few years later. And then here http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=13087 Livingston lays down the costs. TfL is hardly short of cash, if £60m is all it would take for implementation why can't he just get on with it?. He's not exactly known for being prudent and to argue over a relatively small project (cost wise) with such large potential benefits seems incredibly petty. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote: If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster, rather than Ken/TfL. The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant. This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? Oh and what standards? Read Uncle Roger (Ford) in Modern Railways, repeatedly, and learn. Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures. Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at last. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
In article , ] (Arthur Figgis) wrote:
Is Oyster technology proprietory, or can anyone get the specs and make their own kit if they want? I believe Transys own it. The government's problem with Oyster is the risk of supplier lock-in. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
In article , Paul Corfield
writes You're obviously entitled to your view about privacy but I have no real issue about that information being captured by TfL. Perhaps that's because I know how the system was designed and partly because I work for TfL and can't see how they can use the information in some malign way. The problem isn't so much TfL themselves, as others. TfL are required to hand that information to the police if demanded. I think (this not being an electronic communications system under RIPA) that it requires a PACE order. [If this were an ECS, there's different paperwork a long collection of other people, from MI6 down to the Royal Mail (but not the Egg Marketing Board), also entitled to ask.] PC Plod thinks that his wife is having an affair. Under pretext of some investigation, he demands details of all Oysters touching out at his local station between 10:00 and 11:00 one day, then looks through them for likely "suspects". Similar things have been done with the DVLA records, so please don't tell me it's impossible. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes TfL are required to hand that information to the police if demanded. I think (this not being an electronic communications system under RIPA) that it requires a PACE order. [If this were an ECS, there's different paperwork a long collection of other people, from MI6 down to the Royal Mail (but not the Egg Marketing Board), That's a relief! also entitled to ask.] PC Plod thinks that his wife is having an affair. Under pretext of some investigation, he demands details of all Oysters touching out at his local station between 10:00 and 11:00 one day, then looks through them for likely "suspects". Similar things have been done with the DVLA records, so please don't tell me it's impossible. Indeed. A personnel colleague [1] of mine works for a major public authority which has a department specifically to monitor its staff to check on/prevent them doing exactly that sort of thing under exactly those circumstances. I'm not usually paranoid about Big Brother but learning that did give me a bit of a jolt to be honest. [1] My profession in the days when I had a "proper job". -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Barry Salter wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:04:59 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Scott" wrote: snip For what it's worth, Southern switched to a zonal pricing structure on Monday... Er, Southern were using this zonal pricing structure last year (2005) as well. I have PDF's of their 'FarePal' literature from last year to prove it. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? Oh and what standards? Read Uncle Roger (Ford) in Modern Railways, repeatedly, and learn. Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures. Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at last. Since ITSO exists only as a specification, one wonders why it was not drafted to be Oyster-compatible. -- Peter Lawrence |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter wrote: Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs would either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines similar to those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents). I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far easier to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting standards for retailing. You'd think so, wouldn't you? But apparently not. Again, see Modern Railways. Yes I have read Roger Ford in Modern Railways. I still don't agree that things are as he puts them. He isn't always right you know. The technology is not the issue at all here. Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think I had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains. These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were both people who could see the opportunities the technology would provide and how it linked to other things that were happening in the wider IT, Internet and retail markets. It's politics alright, but not the sort you're thinking of. See my other posts on this. The risk of supplier lock-in is a very valid one when the general taxpayer is paying, IMHO. However neither you nor Roger Ford negotiated the IPR and licensing provisions in the Prestige Contract. I did so I know what is possible if only people had the will to do something about it. ITSO was but a glint in someone's eye when we were negotiating the contract and it was impossible to make provision for something that was not necessarily even going to happen. LT (as was) could not wait for what is now 7 years while other people eventually get round to devising a common standard. Even GMPTE, who were supposed to be the smartcard leaders for multiple application cards, had no idea where they were going. I don't see a Smartcard scheme in operation in the Greater Manchester area! -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote: If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster, rather than Ken/TfL. The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant. This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? Oh and what standards? Read Uncle Roger (Ford) in Modern Railways, repeatedly, and learn. Colin - you really don't need to lecture me and insist that I run off like a child to learn something. I was well aware of the Modern Railway stuff - I was interested to understand if you had *another* source of information that would broaden the debate. Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures. See my comments elsewhere - this is all "smoke and mirrors" from the TOCs. Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at last. But only off the back of the E Money contract that TfL are letting which will exploit the Oyster card holding base. There are ITSO compatible cards and readers being trialled on a number of bus services in West London at present. This is not funded by government but by TfL. The equipment is also provided by the great evil, money grabbing Transys company who, of course, have no interest in ITSO compatibility! ITSO compatible equipment will be funded commercially off the back of a TfL initiative. There is no need for TfL to be doing any of this. I'd be interested to see if the TOCs will be prepared to "take a risk" about co-operating with the wider scheme or whether they will still lock themselves away in their little insular world of 7 year franchises pretending the real world isn't outside. The TOCs need to "grow up" and understand where their best interests lie. Being awkward about a major ticketing initiative in the country's capital city is not the way to go about things, IMO. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
DERWENT Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual
travelcard? Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:36:35 -0000, "Chris" "Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message .. . On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:11:26 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote: If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster, rather than Ken/TfL. The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant. This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from? The standards problem has been in the railway press - probably in Modern Railways and elsewhere. Also mentioned by the mayor here http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=12553. I can see where the TOC's are coming from on this issue, it seems Livingston is insisting they pay for the 'retailing and validation capability' of oyster installation in stations when the dft is developing (presumably still a work in progress) a separate system for the rest of the UK, which they will be installing a few years later. Are there any good reasons for not making Oyster the standard for the whole of the UK? Why reinvent the wheel? PRAR -- http://www.i.am/prar/ and http://prar.fotopic.net/ As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. --Dick Cavett Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists. NB Anti-spam measures in force - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:20:56 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , ] (Arthur Figgis) wrote: Is Oyster technology proprietory, or can anyone get the specs and make their own kit if they want? I believe Transys own it. You would be wrong. There are appropriate licensing provisions so other manufacturers can make compatible kit. It was not acceptable for us to create a contract that would lock everyone into Transys. So if Figgis Smartcards Ltd wanted to churn out Oyster-compatible equipment cheaper than whoever now makes it, there would be nothing to stop it? The government's problem with Oyster is the risk of supplier lock-in. No the government's problem is that it wants ITSO to be the standard despite being 10 years behind the times. It also doesn't want to pay anything to make any of this happen. Which surely leaves the TOCs stuck in the middle until something which meets both requirements is available? The government could make the TOCs adopt Oyster or any form of Smartcard technology tomorrow if it was so minded. But could it (short of passing a new law or paying all the costs), if it (presumably) isn't in the franchise agreements? If the TOCs have all reached the same conclusion not to fit it, might this not tell us something about whether it is worth the TOCs' while to do it? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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