wrote:

Paul G wrote:

Transport for London (TfL) had been exploring ways to fund construction
of the Barking Reach route, but London Mayor Ken Livingstone now seems
to have secured the cash needed to accelerate the project.

You've got to hand it to the DLR bods, they're pretty good at getting
cash for all these extensions. The Woolwich Arsenal one is already
well under construction, with the eastbound platform at WA about to
shut for a few months to enable construction to take place.

I wonder if there would've been so much support for that extension if it
was known that shutting such an important platform for months was part
of the deal.

I know the DLR is cheaper to build than the tube, but surely something
like the Bakerloo to Camberwell could have been built for near to the
same price as three new DLR extensions (King George V, Woolwich
Arsenal, Barking)? The Bakerloo tunnels are already halfway down
Walworth Road, and the remaining distance to Camberwell Green can't be
much longer than the DLR river tunnel to Woolwich.

I thought extending the DLR to Woolwich was a waste of money (as a more
direct route is planned for the future which would practically empty
that section of DLR) but Bakerloo to Camberwell is worse! While I
support extending the Bakerloo, Lewisham is a far more appropriate
destination.

There's already a 4 track railway through Elephant & Castle which also
goes through Camberwell. They just need to reopen a station or two.

Further into the future, a tunnel could be constructed from around
Elephant via London Bridge to either Moorgate or somewhere between there
and Old Street, to link up with the GN Electrics. That would finally
solve the overcrowding problem on the Northern Line, as well as freeing
up paths on the Peckham and Thameslink lines.

I guess studies have been done about which extensions to the network
will offer more benefit to more people, etc. but it seems to me that
the DLR system is becoming ever more bitty and complex, possibly at the
expense of more coherent additions to the tube network.

'Tis not just the DLR. Every project seems to be considered in
isolation. To see what we could do with a bit of joined up thinking,
have a look at the full plan page of my website.

--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk

Aidan Stanger wrote:

Bakerloo to Camberwell is worse! While I
support extending the Bakerloo, Lewisham is a far more appropriate
destination.

Surely both are possible? As the tunnels are halfway to Camberwell
already, it makes sense to go there, so you could have Elephant -
Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley
- Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes.

Patrick

Surely both are possible? As the tunnels are halfway to Camberwell
already, it makes sense to go there, so you could have Elephant -
Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley
- Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes.

That would probably be a pretty overcrowded branch, and any problems
that may come from trying to create more lines on the Denmark
Hill-Lewisham axis (which is partly in a cutting, I believe).

What's more, the obvious route for the Bakerloo to take to Lewisham
would be down the Old Kent Road, which must be one of the most busiest
bus corridors in the city, with stops at Elephant-Bricklayer's
Arms-Canal Bridge-Surrey Canal Road-New Cross-St John's-Lewisham.

wrote:
Surely both are possible? As the tunnels are halfway to Camberwell
already, it makes sense to go there, so you could have Elephant -
Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley
- Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes.

That would probably be a pretty overcrowded branch, and any problems
that may come from trying to create more lines on the Denmark
Hill-Lewisham axis (which is partly in a cutting, I believe).

Indeed, it is a cutting between Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye, IIRC.
Maybe if it went that way more tunnelling would be needed.

What's more, the obvious route for the Bakerloo to take to Lewisham
would be down the Old Kent Road, which must be one of the most busiest
bus corridors in the city, with stops at Elephant-Bricklayer's
Arms-Canal Bridge-Surrey Canal Road-New Cross-St John's-Lewisham.

I quite agree that's the more *obvious* route geographically. What I
was more looking at was extending the tube outwards a bit to decrease
journey times. The Old Kent Road is close enough into the centre for a
bus journey not to be a big deal, timewise, and, additionally, the
Jubilee Line is only just up on Jamaica Road.

The bus times from Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead & Brockley into
town are such that a tube would be a real boon to those areas, rather
than a "nice to have" as it would be for the Old Kent Road, IMHO.

Patrick

wrote:

Surely both are possible? As the tunnels are halfway to Camberwell
already, it makes sense to go there, so you could have Elephant -
Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley
- Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes.

Both are possible, but just being possible doesn't make something the best
option. A tunnel going half way to Camberwell is not a good reason to
extend trains there through it when there is already a railway on the
surface going all the way there and beyond!

South London is quite well supplied with railway lines, so a Bakerloo Line
extension wouldn't be as useful as a mainline loading gauge railway (which
could increase service frequency on existing lines as it would be a useful
alternative to the congested London termini).

Your suggested Bakerloo extension to Camberwell, Lewisham and Hayes
suffers from that problem. Trains with tube loading gauge would not be
able to share the Denmark Hill to Lewisham section with trains of mainline
loading gauge. That would mean more tracks would have to be built, which
would make it much costlier. It would be difficult to add more tracks to
Lewisham station itself (although the benefits of doing so would also be
high) and the Hayes Line would lose its direct service to Cannon Street.
The City is more significant on the Hayes Line than on the rest of the
South Eastern, as people going from Hayes to the West End can get there
more quickly by catching a bus to Bromley South and a fast train to
Victoria, so diverting the trains so far away from it would inconvenience
a high proportion of the passengers. Also, the Hayes Line serves Catford
station, which is very close to Catford Bridge station, which already has
trains to Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill and Elephant. Therefore your
plan would make things worse for many people.

Are there any other options for extending the Bakerloo via Camberwell?
It might be possible to utilize some of the old Crystal Palace High Level
trackbed in a southward Bakerloo extension beyond Camberwell that avoids
the main line, but it is difficlut to see a good reason for doing so. The
land is not very densely developed (and not a prime candidate for dense
development either) and is near a lot of parkland and open space, so you
wouldn't have enough passengers to make it worthwhile. Also, it's not
really that far from other lines. If any of that branch is ever to be
relaid, it would be best to do so as a tram line rather than a Tube line.

'Tis a similar story for other parts of South London that aren't very near
railways. With trams planned to run to Peckham and Brixton, extending
these is likely to be a more cost effective solution than building another
tube line - and there are plans for othe Central London tram lines which
may be built if CRT is successful.

That would probably be a pretty overcrowded branch, and any problems
that may come from trying to create more lines on the Denmark
Hill-Lewisham axis (which is partly in a cutting, I believe).

What's more, the obvious route for the Bakerloo to take to Lewisham
would be down the Old Kent Road, which must be one of the most busiest
bus corridors in the city, with stops at Elephant-Bricklayer's
Arms-Canal Bridge-Surrey Canal Road-New Cross-St John's-Lewisham.

If the trackbed of the Bricklayer's Arms branch had not been built over,
it would have made sense to utilize it. However, as it has, I favour the
following alignment: under Old Kent road (with two or three stations, the
last of which would be where the existing line to Peckham Rye crosses it)
then New Cross Gate, then Lewisham.

It would not have to finish at Lewisham. I think the best option is to
surface at Blackheath to give cross platform interchange, then take over
the tunnel to Charlton. Eventually I'd like to see it extended under the
river to LCY Airport, Beckton Park, and Beckton, with a further extension
to Barking initially operated by the DLR in order to build up passenger
numbers before being converted to Bakerloo Line.

--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk