One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto
Oysters. However, introducing yet another layer of complication into
Oyster might not be a good idea,

How is it more complicated than using a 7-day travelcard on Oyster,
which is already possible?

It creates two different (but yet confusingly similar) ways of paying
for a single day's travel.

and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs (if there is no
urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

I think that the dates for implementation of PAYG are now out of the
hands of the TOCs - would accepting ODTCs involve anything more than
changing information for staff and customers?

There's still some dragging of feet, and it's certainly not out of most
TOCs' hands. TfL are taking over Silverlink Metro in 2007, and the DfT
have mandated Oyster acceptance on SWT in 2009 - but only because they
were laying out the groundwork for new bids. Given that three franchises
have only just started (Greater Western, Thameslink Great Northern and
South Eastern), it could be years before the DfT can mandate Oyster
acceptance on those modes.

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG
capping, so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more
confused than they already are.

I agree with the former, but much of the latter is due to the current
situation in which only certain types of travelcard are acceptable on
Oyster.

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.

Absolutely :)


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Dave Arquati wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

I would disagree with this. To me, the delineation is between simple
single/return tickets and travelcards (of whatever length), because the
latter allow you unlimited journeys within the timeframe, whereas the
former don't.

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic, though. Southern announced last year that
they are committed to implementing Oyster prepay (with an initial pilot
scheme between Balham and Victoria), zonal fares are set to appear in
January (a pre-requisite for prepay), and I gather that Oyster-ITSO
compatibility trials are well under way.

I guess the other TOCs (and ATOC) remain unenthusiastic, but I noticed
that Peter Hendy said that any existing London TOCs who bid for the
Silverlink concession will be pressed on their wider plans for Oyster.

I still don't really see why the TOCs cannot widen their acceptance of
Oyster travelcards to include the one- and three-day types, in advance
of prepay - but I don't think it will happen.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

No, but the increasing number of people who work from home and commute
to the office on only a couple of days a week (or less) do. It seems odd
that such people, who help reduce the amount of peak-time overcrowding
on the network, get so little encouragement from the current ticketing
arrangements.
--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?


Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some
reason, the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

On Wed, 3 May 2006, John B wrote:

wrote:

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press ahead
with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some reason,
the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

Closely followed by 'intellectual property rights'.

It's also possible that ITSO does things that Oyster doesn't (a common
property of committee-designed specifications), but i haven't seen a
detailed ITSO vs Oyster comparison.

tom

--
Civis Britannicus sum.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message .com,
writes
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because nobody would get their finger out, and somebody had to do
something?

When Oyster was conceived there was no standard.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In article .com,
() wrote:

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years.
When Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to
press ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than
spend years waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with
something possibly workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

The TOCs don't have any choice. They have to do what the DfT (and the
SRA before it) tell them on this.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
() wrote:

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years.
When Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to
press ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than
spend years waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with
something possibly workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

The TOCs don't have any choice. They have to do what the DfT (and the
SRA before it) tell them on this.


On the other hand, TfL does have a choice about whether to implement
punishment fares for people who don't use Oyster years before Oyster is
available to everyone.

If you live in one of the many places in London (particularly south)
where there are NR stations and local shops can't top up Oyster, you
have little choice but to get a paper season ticket. You might have an
Oyster which you put prepay on when you get the chance, near work in
central London say, but you wouldn't be able to put your travelcard on
it on the morning when you needed to renew.

But if you need to travel on the Underground one stop beyond the zone
of your paper season travelcard, you have three choices.

1) buy a paper extension at a punishment fare of £3

2) use prepay for your whole journey from where you get on near work
(despite being covered for most of it by your paper travelcard)

3) get off the train before your stop, go up the escalator, through the
barrier with your travelcard, back in the barrier with your Oyster,
down the escalator again and wait for another train

If you try to use Prepay without doing either 2 or 3, you risk a
penalty fare. 3) is what I had to do several times in recent weeks,
when I had some appointments one stop beyond my usual zone, and was in
a hurry.

So why is TfL punishing people for not doing something that they can't
do yet?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Barry Salter wrote:
On 5 May 2006 14:52:14 -0700, "MIG" wrote:

If you live in one of the many places in London (particularly south)
where there are NR stations and local shops can't top up Oyster, you
have little choice but to get a paper season ticket. You might have an
Oyster which you put prepay on when you get the chance, near work in
central London say, but you wouldn't be able to put your travelcard on
it on the morning when you needed to renew.

Why not? Assuming you live within the Travelcard Area, there's nothing
to stop you from getting a Weekly or longer Travelcard on Oyster and
renewing it in advance (as your Oyster has three slots for Season
Tickets).

I live in Edmonton, North London. My nearest Underground stations are
Turnpike Lane - Southgate (inclusive) on the Piccadilly Line or Seven
Sisters on the Victoria Line. Admittedly, I do have several Oyster
"Ticket Stops" nearby, but I opt to renew my Monthly at a convenient
Underground Station about a week before it runs out. Problem solved.


I was in Twickenham recently, and could not find anywhere that could
top up an Oyster. If you work near somewhere like Oxford Circus, you
are lucky to get into the station in the evening, let alone get near
the ticket counter, if you remember.



But if you need to travel on the Underground one stop beyond the zone
of your paper season travelcard, you have three choices.

1) buy a paper extension at a punishment fare of £3

2) use prepay for your whole journey from where you get on near work
(despite being covered for most of it by your paper travelcard)

3) get off the train before your stop, go up the escalator, through the
barrier with your travelcard, back in the barrier with your Oyster,
down the escalator again and wait for another train

4) Use your Travelcard+PrePay Oyster, thereby paying the appropriate
extension rate.

Something I do on a regular basis with no problems whatsoever.


But my list was about what you have to do if you've got a paper
travelcard, in which case 4) is impossible.


If you try to use Prepay without doing either 2 or 3, you risk a
penalty fare. 3) is what I had to do several times in recent weeks,
when I had some appointments one stop beyond my usual zone, and was in
a hurry.

So why is TfL punishing people for not doing something that they can't
do yet?

Presumably because ATOC wouldn't play by TfL's "rules" over the rollout
of Oyster as, funnily enough, the TOCs didn't want to be tied to a
single supplier when there was a national standard in the offing.


That's their problem. Why should their customers be punished by TfL?
Are they expecting us to be able to nag our TOCs into submission? I
need someone's neck to squeeze at this point.