One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Scenario: a friend of mine from Dublin was coming across to do the
London Marathon and asked me what ticket he should get. He was
arriving at Heathrow, then had to go across London to Custom House to
pick up his marathon stuff. He then had to come back to Leicester
Square to meet me for dinner, then we were heading back to New Cross
afterwards. All tube or DLR journeys apart from the very last one,
which was on National Rail.

Mindful of the fact that Oyster prepay doesn't work on NR, I told him
to get a one day travelcard for Zones 1-6 at Heathrow. As you can see,
I didn't realise that you can't put one day travelcards onto Oyster!

Result: my friend's journey goes smoothly until we get to Charing Cross
to catch the New Cross train. He's not allowed through the barrier and
the guards just keep yelling "Prepay is not valid on National Rail",
without explaining the one day travelcard issue (we were protesting
that he had a travelcard).

I now understand why it didn't work, but have some questions:

1. What was my friend sold at Heathrow when he asked for a Zone 1-6 one
day travelcard to be put onto his Oyster card?

2. Would he have been able to buy a paper ticket at Heathrow for the
same price, thus being able to use National Rail on a one day
travelcard?

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

wrote:
Scenario: a friend of mine from Dublin was coming across to do the
London Marathon and asked me what ticket he should get. He was
arriving at Heathrow, then had to go across London to Custom House to
pick up his marathon stuff. He then had to come back to Leicester
Square to meet me for dinner, then we were heading back to New Cross
afterwards. All tube or DLR journeys apart from the very last one,
which was on National Rail.

Mindful of the fact that Oyster prepay doesn't work on NR, I told him
to get a one day travelcard for Zones 1-6 at Heathrow. As you can see,
I didn't realise that you can't put one day travelcards onto Oyster!

Result: my friend's journey goes smoothly until we get to Charing Cross
to catch the New Cross train. He's not allowed through the barrier and
the guards just keep yelling "Prepay is not valid on National Rail",
without explaining the one day travelcard issue (we were protesting
that he had a travelcard).

I now understand why it didn't work, but have some questions:

1. What was my friend sold at Heathrow when he asked for a Zone 1-6 one
day travelcard to be put onto his Oyster card?


Presumably prepay. The machines would have been displaying the
remaining credit.


2. Would he have been able to buy a paper ticket at Heathrow for the
same price, thus being able to use National Rail on a one day
travelcard?


Presumably not. Another example of Oyster dramatically increasing
fares and/or reducing convenience. Did he have to pay the full single
fare from Charing Cross, or take a long, slow route via the Underground?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

MIG wrote:
wrote:
Scenario: a friend of mine from Dublin was coming across to do the
London Marathon and asked me what ticket he should get. He was
arriving at Heathrow, then had to go across London to Custom House to
pick up his marathon stuff. He then had to come back to Leicester
Square to meet me for dinner, then we were heading back to New Cross
afterwards. All tube or DLR journeys apart from the very last one,
which was on National Rail.

Mindful of the fact that Oyster prepay doesn't work on NR, I told him
to get a one day travelcard for Zones 1-6 at Heathrow. As you can see,
I didn't realise that you can't put one day travelcards onto Oyster!

Result: my friend's journey goes smoothly until we get to Charing Cross
to catch the New Cross train. He's not allowed through the barrier and
the guards just keep yelling "Prepay is not valid on National Rail",
without explaining the one day travelcard issue (we were protesting
that he had a travelcard).

I now understand why it didn't work, but have some questions:

1. What was my friend sold at Heathrow when he asked for a Zone 1-6 one
day travelcard to be put onto his Oyster card?


Presumably prepay. The machines would have been displaying the
remaining credit.


2. Would he have been able to buy a paper ticket at Heathrow for the
same price, thus being able to use National Rail on a one day
travelcard?


Presumably not. Another example of Oyster dramatically increasing
fares and/or reducing convenience. Did he have to pay the full single
fare from Charing Cross, or take a long, slow route via the Underground?

Actually, you must be able to get paper one day travelcards at
Heathrow, so he was sold the wrong thing. Presumably there was a £3
deposit on the Oyster or did he already have one for some reason? If
he had one already and offered it at the counter, whoever was serving
should still have asked how much credit he wanted to put on it, so the
situation is difficult to explain.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

MIG wrote:
Actually, you must be able to get paper one day travelcards at
Heathrow, so he was sold the wrong thing. Presumably there was a £3
deposit on the Oyster or did he already have one for some reason? If
he had one already and offered it at the counter, whoever was serving
should still have asked how much credit he wanted to put on it, so the
situation is difficult to explain.

No, he put a £3 deposit down to get the Oyster, as he makes frequent
trips to London and thought it'd be worth the investment (how wrong he
was!).

I'll find out more detail of the actual transaction and let you know
what he actually asked for; I'm just assuming it was a Zone 1-6 one day
travelcard as that's what I'd told him to ask for.

We bit the bullet and just paid the £1.90 from Charing Cross to New
Cross rather than trek from Embankment up to Whitechapel and then down
to New Cross from there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of Oyster as a general rule, I
think it's a great system. It does seem to be a rather odd decision to
not be able to load one day travelcards onto it, though, in addition to
having prepay capping. Roll on the day that Ken gets control of NR in
London and makes them accept Oyster prepay, is all I can say.

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Bob Wood wrote:

A paper ticket is the only way to get a One-Day TravelCard.

Just why is this? The benefits of extensions for unplanned journeys apply
just as much to one day travelcards as to longer season tickets so why can't
people get the card on Oyster?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message .com,
writes

1. What was my friend sold at Heathrow when he asked for a Zone 1-6 one
day travelcard to be put onto his Oyster card?

Difficult to be sure without knowing the amount, but probably enough
pre-pay credit to cover one day's use in zones 1-6.

Although capping means that that will be no more than a one-day
travelcard, it is important to remember that pre-pay is not a ticket -
it is just credit until it is actually used. As you discovered,
functionally it is not the same as a one-day travelcard.

2. Would he have been able to buy a paper ticket at Heathrow for the
same price, thus being able to use National Rail on a one day
travelcard?

Yes. Oyster do warn that a paper travelcard is better value for
occasional trips that include travel on National Rail.

--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes

Just why is this? The benefits of extensions for unplanned journeys apply
just as much to one day travelcards as to longer season tickets so why can't
people get the card on Oyster?

Because it is not (yet) accepted by National Rail in most of the London
area.
--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Paul Terry wrote:

Just why is this? The benefits of extensions for unplanned journeys apply
just as much to one day travelcards as to longer season tickets so why
can't
people get the card on Oyster?

Because it is not (yet) accepted by National Rail in most of the London
area.

But they have no problem accepting my longer season ticket so why not a one
day season ticket?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote in
:

Paul Terry wrote:

Just why is this? The benefits of extensions for unplanned journeys
apply just as much to one day travelcards as to longer season
tickets so why can't
people get the card on Oyster?

Because it is not (yet) accepted by National Rail in most of the
London area.

But they have no problem accepting my longer season ticket so why not
a one day season ticket?

Forgive a naive question, but what is the advantage of Oyster over paper
tickets - either specific single/return ones or a one-day travelcard? Are
Oyster fares cheaper than paper-ticket fares for the same journey (assuming
it's not by NR!) or is the main advantage the convenience of not having to
queue up at a counter or ticket machine before you can travel?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Tim Roll-Pickering
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

Because it is not (yet) accepted by National Rail in most of the London
area.

But they have no problem accepting my longer season ticket so why not a one
day season ticket?

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course). Still, it *is* going to happen, despite the TOCs
dragging their heels at every opportunity.

--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In ,
Martin Underwood typed:

Forgive a naive question,

You're forgiven.


... but what is the advantage of Oyster over
paper tickets - either specific single/return ones or a one-day
travelcard?
Are Oyster fares cheaper than paper-ticket fares for the
same journey (assuming it's not by NR!)

Oyster singles are always cheaper than paper singles (there isn't such a
thing as return ticket on LT-only journeys). Oyster daily capping will
result in a total fare of at least 50p less than the equivalent one-day
travelcard (ignoring the fact that you can't use Oyster on most NR
trains). Bus journeys are cheaper with Oyster; Oyster capping on bus
journeys will result in a total fare of 50p less than a one-day bus
pass.


... or is the main advantage the
convenience of not having to queue up at a counter or ticket machine
before you can travel?

Saving money - or saving time - you can decide which is the main
advantage for yourself.






--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Paul Terry wrote:

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course).

AIUI, it seems to be because for some reason you can't load one day
travelcards onto Oyster cards, rather than that the TOCs won't accept
one day travelcards on Oyster.

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Martin
Underwood writes

Forgive a naive question, but what is the advantage of Oyster over paper
tickets - either specific single/return ones or a one-day travelcard? Are
Oyster fares cheaper than paper-ticket fares for the same journey (assuming
it's not by NR!)

Yes - considerably cheaper: an off-peak bus journey is 80p with Oyster,
£1.50 with a paper ticket; a zone 1 tube single is £1.50 with Oyster or
£3 without.

Oyster fare-capping means that one day's use should be 50p or so below
the equivalent one-day travelcard price - so, a much smaller saving
there, and no saving at all if the travel includes a national rail
journey since that will normally have to be paid for as an additional
item.

or is the main advantage the convenience of not having to
queue up at a counter or ticket machine before you can travel?

That is another advantage. The current non-acceptance by most of
National Rail in London for prepay/occasional travel is the biggest
disadvantage for many.

--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Bob Wood wrote:

Oyster singles are always cheaper than paper singles (there isn't such a
thing as return ticket on LT-only journeys).

Except for certain DLR journeys.
--
Michael Hoffman

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In ,
Martin Underwood typed:

Forgive an equally naive supplementary: what is "capping" in this
context?

Individual fares are deducted from the balance until the daily 'capping'
level is reached. After that no more is deducted.

To take the simplest example, the off-peak Oyster bus fare is 80p. Make
one bus journey and 80p is deducted from your balance. Make another bus
journey and another 80p is deducted. Make a third bus journey and
another 80p is deducted, making £2.40 for the three journeys. Now comes
the clever bit - the daily cap for bus journeys is set at £3 - so,
you make a fourth journey and 60p is deducted. Nothing more would be
deducted for any further bus journeys on the same day.



--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In ,
Michael Hoffman typed:

Bob Wood wrote:

Oyster singles are always cheaper than paper singles (there isn't
such a thing as return ticket on LT-only journeys).

Except for certain DLR journeys.


Return tickets for certain DLR journeys? I wasn't aware of this and
can't find them in the Fares booklet
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Please tell me more.




--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Bob Wood wrote in
:

In ,
Martin Underwood typed:

Forgive an equally naive supplementary: what is "capping" in this
context?

Individual fares are deducted from the balance until the daily
'capping' level is reached. After that no more is deducted.

To take the simplest example, the off-peak Oyster bus fare is 80p. Make
one bus journey and 80p is deducted from your balance. Make
another bus journey and another 80p is deducted. Make a third bus
journey and another 80p is deducted, making £2.40 for the three
journeys. Now comes the clever bit - the daily cap for bus
journeys is set at £3 - so, you make a fourth journey and 60p is
deducted. Nothing more would be deducted for any further bus
journeys on the same day.

Hey, that's really impressive. So it works a bit like a one-day travelcard
in the sense that you get unlimited travel for a fixed price (£3 for buses)
with the additional benefit that if you use it less than this amount on a
certain day, you don't even pay the full £3.

I can see why they are beneficial to customers, but what's the incentive for
the train/bus operators - are the admin costs lower?

If/when they ever include NR trains as well as buses and underground, and
assuming the same geographical coverage as for the paper one-day travelcard,
it might be worth considering. However I bet if you live outside London
there won't be a way of buying a paper return ticket to the nearest boundary
station and then an "Oyster travelcard" - unless your train happens to stop
at that boundary station.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

"Bob Wood" wrote in news:zaJ5g.95$2k4.78@newsfe7-
win.ntli.net:

In ,
Martin Underwood typed:

Forgive an equally naive supplementary: what is "capping" in this
context?

Individual fares are deducted from the balance until the daily 'capping'
level is reached. After that no more is deducted.

To take the simplest example, the off-peak Oyster bus fare is 80p. Make
one bus journey and 80p is deducted from your balance. Make another bus
journey and another 80p is deducted. Make a third bus journey and
another 80p is deducted, making £2.40 for the three journeys. Now comes
the clever bit - the daily cap for bus journeys is set at £3 - so,
you make a fourth journey and 60p is deducted. Nothing more would be
deducted for any further bus journeys on the same day.


If you took four bus journeys and then a single zone 3 tube journey, in
that order, would you be charged...

£3 (cap for bus pass) plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3)
totallying £4

or

£3.20 (cap removed when Oyster realises a tube journey is then taken) plus
£1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3) ???


If it's the above, then that's cool.

If it's the second option, then perhaps it's a good idea to have two PAYG
cards - one for buses, and one for tubes when bus caps have been reached!

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message .com,
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course).

AIUI, it seems to be because for some reason you can't load one day
travelcards onto Oyster cards, rather than that the TOCs won't accept
one day travelcards on Oyster.

I think the only reason why you can't load a ODTC onto Oyster is because
it would then be expected to work as a ODTC - i.e. be usable on National
Rail.

I don't think there is any technical reason why it couldn't be done -
Ask Oyster implies that it is only a matter of time: "at present only 7
Day and longer period Travelcards are available on Oyster".

--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

"Martin Underwood" typed

Forgive an equally naive supplementary: what is "capping" in this context?

Limiting the amount that will be deducted from Oyster PrePay balance for
one day's use.

If the traveller only uses buses, the amount is 'capped' at £3, the cost
of a One Day Bus Pass is normally £3.50.

The amount capped is 50p below the equivalent paper ticket.

If the traveller uses buses and the Tube, the amount capped is also 50p
below the equivalent Travelcard. (eg a Zone 1-4 paper Travelcard is
£5.40, but only £4.90 will be deducted from Oyster PrePay balance for
all travel within these Zones in a day.)

This is fine until the traveller wishes to use National Railways, where
Oyster PrePay is usually not accepted, but paper Travelcard are...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In . 109.145,
Tristán White typed:

If you took four bus journeys and then a single zone 3 tube journey,
in that order, would you be charged...

£3 (cap for bus pass) plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3)
totallying £4

or

£3.20 (cap removed when Oyster realises a tube journey is then taken)
plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3) ???


If it's the above, then that's cool.

If it's the second option, then perhaps it's a good idea to have two
PAYG cards - one for buses, and one for tubes when bus caps have been
reached!

It would be the first of those two options. The 'bus cap' would remain
and a further £1 would be deducted for the Z3 tube journey.

But to go on from that point, if you were then to make another Z3 tube
journey, the bus cap would be replaced by the Z1-4 off-peak cap at £4.90
(assuming all journeys have been off-peak) - so only 90p would be
deducted from the balance. You would then be able to make bus journeys
and tube journeys within Z1-3 without further deduction. NB you would
still have to Touch In and Touch Out - but nothing more would be
deducted.

The cap will always be progressed to the appropriate one as further
journeys are made.


--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
"Bob Wood" wrote in
news:zaJ5g.95$2k4.78@newsfe7-
win.ntli.net:

In ,
Martin Underwood typed:

Forgive an equally naive supplementary: what is "capping" in this
context?

Individual fares are deducted from the balance until the daily 'capping'
level is reached. After that no more is deducted.

To take the simplest example, the off-peak Oyster bus fare is 80p. Make
one bus journey and 80p is deducted from your balance. Make another bus
journey and another 80p is deducted. Make a third bus journey and
another 80p is deducted, making £2.40 for the three journeys. Now comes
the clever bit - the daily cap for bus journeys is set at £3 - so,
you make a fourth journey and 60p is deducted. Nothing more would be
deducted for any further bus journeys on the same day.


If you took four bus journeys and then a single zone 3 tube journey, in
that order, would you be charged...

£3 (cap for bus pass) plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3)
totallying £4

or

£3.20 (cap removed when Oyster realises a tube journey is then taken)
plus
£1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3) ???


If it's the above, then that's cool.

If it's the second option, then perhaps it's a good idea to have two PAYG
cards - one for buses, and one for tubes when bus caps have been reached!

None of the above. You would be charged 80p for the tube journey to bring
you up to £3.80 (the Zone 2-6 travelcard cap) as this would be the cheapest
available ticket covering all of your journeys.

You would be disadvantaged if you used more than one card as you describe.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

If you took four bus journeys and then a single zone 3 tube journey,
in that order, would you be charged...

£3 (cap for bus pass) plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3)
totallying £4

or

£3.20 (cap removed when Oyster realises a tube journey is then taken)
plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3) ???


If it's the above, then that's cool.

If it's the second option, then perhaps it's a good idea to have two
PAYG cards - one for buses, and one for tubes when bus caps have been
reached!

It would be the first of those two options. The 'bus cap' would remain
and a further £1 would be deducted for the Z3 tube journey.

But to go on from that point, if you were then to make another Z3 tube
journey, the bus cap would be replaced by the Z1-4 off-peak cap at £4.90
(assuming all journeys have been off-peak) - so only 90p would be
deducted from the balance. You would then be able to make bus journeys
and tube journeys within Z1-3 without further deduction. NB you would
still have to Touch In and Touch Out - but nothing more would be
deducted.

The cap will always be progressed to the appropriate one as further
journeys are made.

Why are you getting charged for Zones 1-4 when all you have used is the
tube in Zone 3 and the buses? A Zone 2-6 cap of £3.80 will apply in this
case.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Bob Wood wrote:
In ,
Michael Hoffman typed:


Bob Wood wrote:


Oyster singles are always cheaper than paper singles (there isn't
such a thing as return ticket on LT-only journeys).


Except for certain DLR journeys.

Return tickets for certain DLR journeys? I wasn't aware of this and
can't find them in the Fares booklet
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...fares-2006.pdf

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that Oyster singles are no cheaper for DLR
journeys in zones 2-3 since there is a reduced price of £1.50 for a
paper ticket in this situation, as was discussed here earlier this week.
However it appears that the Oyster price would have been £1 so even that
is not true. Sorry.
--
Michael Hoffman

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In ,
Bob Wood typed:

In . 109.145,
Tristán White typed:

If you took four bus journeys and then a single zone 3 tube journey,
in that order, would you be charged...

£3 (cap for bus pass) plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3)
totallying £4

or

£3.20 (cap removed when Oyster realises a tube journey is then taken)
plus £1 (single Oyster tube journey in zone 3) ???


If it's the above, then that's cool.

If it's the second option, then perhaps it's a good idea to have two
PAYG cards - one for buses, and one for tubes when bus caps have been
reached!

It would be the first of those two options. The 'bus cap' would
remain and a further £1 would be deducted for the Z3 tube journey.


Whoooops!!! No, it wouldn't. I forgot about the Z2-6 cap at £3.80.
So a further 80p would be deducted for the Z3 tube journey and further
journeys could be made without deduction on buses and on tubes in Z2-6.

The capping will always move on to the most appropriate level.

NB the bus journeys may have been in Z1 but that doesn't matter - a
Z2-6 cap (or any cap) covers bus journeys in any and all zones.


--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In ,
TKD typed:

Why are you getting charged for Zones 1-4 when all you have used is
the tube in Zone 3 and the buses? A Zone 2-6 cap of £3.80 will apply
in this case.

Indeed. I belatedly realised my error. I tend to forget the Z2-6 cap
in exactly the same way as I tend to forget about the existence of a
Z2-6 travelcard.




--
Bob

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message .com,
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course).

AIUI, it seems to be because for some reason you can't load one day
travelcards onto Oyster cards, rather than that the TOCs won't accept
one day travelcards on Oyster.

I think the only reason why you can't load a ODTC onto Oyster is because
it would then be expected to work as a ODTC - i.e. be usable on National
Rail.

I don't think there is any technical reason why it couldn't be done -
Ask Oyster implies that it is only a matter of time: "at present only 7
Day and longer period Travelcards are available on Oyster".


There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto Oysters.
However, introducing yet another layer of complication into Oyster might
not be a good idea, and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs
(if there is no urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG capping,
so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more confused
than they already are.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto Oysters.
However, introducing yet another layer of complication into Oyster
might not be a good idea,

How is it more complicated than using a 7-day travelcard on Oyster,
which is already possible?

and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs (if there is no
urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

I think that the dates for implementation of PAYG are now out of the
hands of the TOCs - would accepting ODTCs involve anything more than
changing information for staff and customers?

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG capping,
so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more confused
than they already are.

I agree with the former, but much of the latter is due to the current
situation in which only certain types of travelcard are acceptable on
Oyster.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.

Absolutely :)

--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto
Oysters. However, introducing yet another layer of complication into
Oyster might not be a good idea,

How is it more complicated than using a 7-day travelcard on Oyster,
which is already possible?

It creates two different (but yet confusingly similar) ways of paying
for a single day's travel.

and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs (if there is no
urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

I think that the dates for implementation of PAYG are now out of the
hands of the TOCs - would accepting ODTCs involve anything more than
changing information for staff and customers?

There's still some dragging of feet, and it's certainly not out of most
TOCs' hands. TfL are taking over Silverlink Metro in 2007, and the DfT
have mandated Oyster acceptance on SWT in 2009 - but only because they
were laying out the groundwork for new bids. Given that three franchises
have only just started (Greater Western, Thameslink Great Northern and
South Eastern), it could be years before the DfT can mandate Oyster
acceptance on those modes.

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG
capping, so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more
confused than they already are.

I agree with the former, but much of the latter is due to the current
situation in which only certain types of travelcard are acceptable on
Oyster.

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.

Absolutely :)


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Dave Arquati wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

I would disagree with this. To me, the delineation is between simple
single/return tickets and travelcards (of whatever length), because the
latter allow you unlimited journeys within the timeframe, whereas the
former don't.

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic, though. Southern announced last year that
they are committed to implementing Oyster prepay (with an initial pilot
scheme between Balham and Victoria), zonal fares are set to appear in
January (a pre-requisite for prepay), and I gather that Oyster-ITSO
compatibility trials are well under way.

I guess the other TOCs (and ATOC) remain unenthusiastic, but I noticed
that Peter Hendy said that any existing London TOCs who bid for the
Silverlink concession will be pressed on their wider plans for Oyster.

I still don't really see why the TOCs cannot widen their acceptance of
Oyster travelcards to include the one- and three-day types, in advance
of prepay - but I don't think it will happen.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

No, but the increasing number of people who work from home and commute
to the office on only a couple of days a week (or less) do. It seems odd
that such people, who help reduce the amount of peak-time overcrowding
on the network, get so little encouragement from the current ticketing
arrangements.
--
Paul Terry

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?


Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some
reason, the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

On Wed, 3 May 2006, John B wrote:

wrote:

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press ahead
with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some reason,
the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

Closely followed by 'intellectual property rights'.

It's also possible that ITSO does things that Oyster doesn't (a common
property of committee-designed specifications), but i haven't seen a
detailed ITSO vs Oyster comparison.

tom

--
Civis Britannicus sum.

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

Patrick

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In message .com,
writes
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because nobody would get their finger out, and somebody had to do
something?

When Oyster was conceived there was no standard.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

In article .com,
() wrote:

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years.
When Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to
press ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than
spend years waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with
something possibly workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

The TOCs don't have any choice. They have to do what the DfT (and the
SRA before it) tell them on this.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com,
() wrote:

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years.
When Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to
press ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than
spend years waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with
something possibly workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

The TOCs don't have any choice. They have to do what the DfT (and the
SRA before it) tell them on this.


On the other hand, TfL does have a choice about whether to implement
punishment fares for people who don't use Oyster years before Oyster is
available to everyone.

If you live in one of the many places in London (particularly south)
where there are NR stations and local shops can't top up Oyster, you
have little choice but to get a paper season ticket. You might have an
Oyster which you put prepay on when you get the chance, near work in
central London say, but you wouldn't be able to put your travelcard on
it on the morning when you needed to renew.

But if you need to travel on the Underground one stop beyond the zone
of your paper season travelcard, you have three choices.

1) buy a paper extension at a punishment fare of £3

2) use prepay for your whole journey from where you get on near work
(despite being covered for most of it by your paper travelcard)

3) get off the train before your stop, go up the escalator, through the
barrier with your travelcard, back in the barrier with your Oyster,
down the escalator again and wait for another train

If you try to use Prepay without doing either 2 or 3, you risk a
penalty fare. 3) is what I had to do several times in recent weeks,
when I had some appointments one stop beyond my usual zone, and was in
a hurry.

So why is TfL punishing people for not doing something that they can't
do yet?

One day travelcards and Oyster...again!
 

Barry Salter wrote:
On 5 May 2006 14:52:14 -0700, "MIG" wrote:

If you live in one of the many places in London (particularly south)
where there are NR stations and local shops can't top up Oyster, you
have little choice but to get a paper season ticket. You might have an
Oyster which you put prepay on when you get the chance, near work in
central London say, but you wouldn't be able to put your travelcard on
it on the morning when you needed to renew.

Why not? Assuming you live within the Travelcard Area, there's nothing
to stop you from getting a Weekly or longer Travelcard on Oyster and
renewing it in advance (as your Oyster has three slots for Season
Tickets).

I live in Edmonton, North London. My nearest Underground stations are
Turnpike Lane - Southgate (inclusive) on the Piccadilly Line or Seven
Sisters on the Victoria Line. Admittedly, I do have several Oyster
"Ticket Stops" nearby, but I opt to renew my Monthly at a convenient
Underground Station about a week before it runs out. Problem solved.


I was in Twickenham recently, and could not find anywhere that could
top up an Oyster. If you work near somewhere like Oxford Circus, you
are lucky to get into the station in the evening, let alone get near
the ticket counter, if you remember.



But if you need to travel on the Underground one stop beyond the zone
of your paper season travelcard, you have three choices.

1) buy a paper extension at a punishment fare of £3

2) use prepay for your whole journey from where you get on near work
(despite being covered for most of it by your paper travelcard)

3) get off the train before your stop, go up the escalator, through the
barrier with your travelcard, back in the barrier with your Oyster,
down the escalator again and wait for another train

4) Use your Travelcard+PrePay Oyster, thereby paying the appropriate
extension rate.

Something I do on a regular basis with no problems whatsoever.


But my list was about what you have to do if you've got a paper
travelcard, in which case 4) is impossible.


If you try to use Prepay without doing either 2 or 3, you risk a
penalty fare. 3) is what I had to do several times in recent weeks,
when I had some appointments one stop beyond my usual zone, and was in
a hurry.

So why is TfL punishing people for not doing something that they can't
do yet?

Presumably because ATOC wouldn't play by TfL's "rules" over the rollout
of Oyster as, funnily enough, the TOCs didn't want to be tied to a
single supplier when there was a national standard in the offing.


That's their problem. Why should their customers be punished by TfL?
Are they expecting us to be able to nag our TOCs into submission? I
need someone's neck to squeeze at this point.