PAYG and Ken on news
 

Hi - sure all of you saw on London Tonight after ITV news last night the
bit about hopefully all train stations will accept PAYG within two years,
rail operators are positive about it because the customers want it, etc.

Good news, it does sound as though Ken is getting everyone talking and at
least agreeing in principle that it has to be done - exactly how easy/hard
that'll be is still up in the air.

You may have seen that footage of Ken and a couple of others trying to get
through the barriers at a station (Liverpool St) and failing, and having to
go through the gates.

Was this a publicity coup to show how hard it was, or was this a genuine
attempt to use PAYG and finding out they couldn't?

Because of the news item it was included with, it looked like a publicity
coup to demonstrate the system's failings. But they looked so genuinely
surprised they couldn't get through - almost as though they weren't
"acting". Anyone know?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Tristán White wrote:
Hi - sure all of you saw on London Tonight after ITV news last night the
bit about hopefully all train stations will accept PAYG within two years,
rail operators are positive about it because the customers want it, etc.

Good news, it does sound as though Ken is getting everyone talking and at
least agreeing in principle that it has to be done - exactly how easy/hard
that'll be is still up in the air.

You may have seen that footage of Ken and a couple of others trying to get
through the barriers at a station (Liverpool St) and failing, and having to
go through the gates.

Was this a publicity coup to show how hard it was, or was this a genuine
attempt to use PAYG and finding out they couldn't?

Because of the news item it was included with, it looked like a publicity
coup to demonstrate the system's failings. But they looked so genuinely
surprised they couldn't get through - almost as though they weren't
"acting". Anyone know?

They should have been able to get through to travel to Seven Sisters /
Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central - PAYG is valid for journeys
between Liverpool St and those stations.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

PAYG and Ken on news
 

But they looked so genuinely surprised they couldn't get through
- almost as though they weren't "acting". Anyone know?

It could have been a setup but may be because TfL staff passes are only
valid on tubes buses and DLR, not NR. I expect that's the sort of pass
that they're issued with?

Shame they didn't penalty fare them ;)

(though they probably arrived by tube and went through the manual gate
onto the platforms to give the shot of them walking towards the barriers
specially for the meeja rather that arriving by train).


D

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Much as I vowed never ever to vote Labour again since this phoney war
started, if Ken pulls this off with PAYG and irons out all the problems on
NR etc., I may well go back on my word and vote for Ken as mayor again.

I voted Lib Dems at the last mayorals (and Respect at the last local and
general election). But if Ken sorts this PAYG Oyster mess out, he may win
back my vote again.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

But they looked so genuinely surprised they couldn't get through
- almost as though they weren't "acting". Anyone know?

It could have been a setup but may be because TfL staff
passes are only valid on tubes buses and DLR, not NR. I
expect that's the sort of pass that they're issued with?

If it was Liverpool St apparently staff passes do open those gates as
part of that route is available to TfL staff (like on FCC between
Moorgate to Finsbury Park is available on a staff pass).

D

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:34:44 +0100, "Dave Plumb"
wrote:

But they looked so genuinely surprised they couldn't get through
- almost as though they weren't "acting". Anyone know?

It could have been a setup but may be because TfL staff
passes are only valid on tubes buses and DLR, not NR. I
expect that's the sort of pass that they're issued with?

If it was Liverpool St apparently staff passes do open those gates as
part of that route is available to TfL staff (like on FCC between
Moorgate to Finsbury Park is available on a staff pass).

You are correct because mine certainly works the gates at Liverpool St
even though I travel on a permit if I use the Chingford Line.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Tristán White wrote

Much as I vowed never ever to vote Labour again since this phoney war

started, if Ken pulls this off with PAYG and irons out all the
problems on
NR etc., I may well go back on my word and vote for Ken as mayor
again.

Define 'pulls this off'.

Are you happy for NR cheap day returns to disappear for journeys within
the zones ?

Once upon a time I had an Annual season from deepest Surrey to Bank
(W&C). Ken's takeover and simplification would have meant a one third
increase if I hadn't moved to a job elsewhere.

--
Mike D (lives in Surrey, no vote).

PAYG and Ken on news
 

My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to prove
to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!

Cheers

Steve M

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On 12 May 2006 05:52:45 -0700, "Steve M"
wrote:

My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to prove
to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6. However
this hasn't worked for a few months.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in news:01c67550$0b2d7600
$LocalHost@default:


Tristán White wrote

Much as I vowed never ever to vote Labour again since this phoney war

started, if Ken pulls this off with PAYG and irons out all the
problems on
NR etc., I may well go back on my word and vote for Ken as mayor
again.

Define 'pulls this off'.

Are you happy for NR cheap day returns to disappear for journeys
within
the zones ?

Once upon a time I had an Annual season from deepest Surrey to Bank
(W&C). Ken's takeover and simplification would have meant a one third
increase if I hadn't moved to a job elsewhere.




I don't see why you couldn't have them both?

And if you have a gold card, you get a third off anyway for these
journeys even if you go way out of London. And so does your partner etc.

Would introduction of PAYG necessarily mean abolition of cheap day
returns? After all, you can surely get a cheap-day return on some parts
of NR that do accept PAYG, can't you?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to prove
to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6. However
this hasn't worked for a few months.

Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline staff
are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you through. I'm glad
to be back on an annual ticket again just to be able to pass through there
without incident.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Tristán White wrote
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote

Tristán White wrote
[...]
started, if Ken pulls this off with PAYG and irons out all the
problems on
NR etc., I may well go back on my word and vote for Ken as mayor
again.

Define 'pulls this off'.

Are you happy for NR cheap day returns to disappear for journeys
within the zones ?

Once upon a time I had an Annual season from deepest Surrey to Bank
(W&C). Ken's takeover and simplification would have meant a one
third
increase if I hadn't moved to a job elsewhere.

I don't see why you couldn't have them both?

Once the W&C was taken over the only allowed option was a Annual
season/ zones 1-6 plus NR from the zone boundary to my home station.

And if you have a gold card, you get a third off anyway for these
journeys even if you go way out of London. And so does your partner
etc.

? only after 10:00 (CDR from 9:30).


Would introduction of PAYG necessarily mean abolition of cheap day
returns? After all, you can surely get a cheap-day return on some
parts
of NR that do accept PAYG, can't you?

No CDRs on Oyster of course plus all of them seem to be TFL fares IIRC.

But my question was if Ken 'pulls this off' by having 'singles only'
and making the former CDR buyers pay more until they got to the capping
level would you (and they) be happy) ? I assume that gold card
discounts would vanish too.

--
Mike D

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"TKD" wrote in
:


My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to
prove to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6.
However this hasn't worked for a few months.

Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline
staff are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you
through. I'm glad to be back on an annual ticket again just to be able
to pass through there without incident.



You mean.... it *is* valid?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central
and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to
prove to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6.
However this hasn't worked for a few months.

Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline
staff are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you
through. I'm glad to be back on an annual ticket again just to be able
to pass through there without incident.



You mean.... it *is* valid?

On the Thameslink route it is valid as far as Kentish Town and also at
Elephant & Castle.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central
and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

You can't use Oyster PAYG from Stratford to Silvertown, only to Canning Town
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06.pdf#page=12

[But you can instead go to London City Airport on the DLR.]
--
David Biddulph

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
Tristán White wrote
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote
Tristán White wrote
(snip)
Would introduction of PAYG necessarily mean abolition of cheap day
returns? After all, you can surely get a cheap-day return on some
parts
of NR that do accept PAYG, can't you?

No CDRs on Oyster of course plus all of them seem to be TFL fares IIRC.

But my question was if Ken 'pulls this off' by having 'singles only'
and making the former CDR buyers pay more until they got to the capping
level would you (and they) be happy) ? I assume that gold card
discounts would vanish too.

My understanding of Tristán's comment was that acceptance of Oyster PAYG
on a route does not mean that paper tickets have to switch over to the
TfL system. Both could be available, so that any traveller would have
the option of using either PAYG or a paper ticket (such as a CDR) for
their journey.

This is almost what happens on Silverlink Metro already; LU (paper)
singles are valid, as are NR cheap day singles/returns. You can choose
which to use depending on which is the cheapest for your requirements.

In this manner, introducing PAYG on, for example, Crystal Palace to
Victoria would mean that passengers simply travelling to the vicinity of
Victoria could buy the cheaper CDR, whilst those travelling on via Tube
to somewhere like Oxford Circus could use PAYG and avoid using two tickets.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Tristán White wrote:
"TKD" wrote in
:

My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to
prove to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid there!

These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6.
However this hasn't worked for a few months.
Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline
staff are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you
through. I'm glad to be back on an annual ticket again just to be able
to pass through there without incident.

You mean.... it *is* valid?

Yes... (Kentish Town to London Bridge or Elephant & Castle) but try
arguing it with the gate staff. I made the mistake of going from
Farringdon to London Bridge on PAYG some months ago and regretted it -
by the time I'd managed to get out of the station (after trying to
persuade three different staff that PAYG was valid), I wished I'd taken
the bus instead.

Actually, Thameslink is slow along that route that the bus is sometimes
quicker anyway.

If forced to do it again, I'd take a copy of the TfL fares leaflet as
proof that I wasn't a fare-dodger.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sat, 13 May 2006 16:49:00 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

[payg on Thameslink]

If forced to do it again, I'd take a copy of the TfL fares leaflet as
proof that I wasn't a fare-dodger.

Or I would simply threaten the staff with a report to Charles Horton,
their new MD, and Keith Ludeman the Go Ahead Board Member for rail. The
only way these nonsenses get sorted is if the person at the top is told
what is not working.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Dave Arquati wrote:

In this manner, introducing PAYG on, for example, Crystal Palace to
Victoria would mean that passengers simply travelling to the vicinity of
Victoria could buy the cheaper CDR, whilst those travelling on via Tube to
somewhere like Oxford Circus could use PAYG and avoid using two tickets.

At the "State of London" debate today I went to the session on transport
with Peter Hendy (TfL Commissioner). One of the audience raised the example
of travelling from Clapham to Waterloo - from Clapham Junction a CDR with a
Young Person's Railcard is about £1.60 wheras on Oyster PAYG Clapham Common
to Waterloo and back is £4.00.

Hendy said he was surprised that there are any places where National Rail
fares are cheaper but declined to give explicit assurances that fares will
not be pushed up if/when PAYG is rolled out on National Rail.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"TKD" wrote in news:1147497659.88957.0
@doris.uk.clara.net:


My staff pass never works the gates at London Bridge (Southeastern
side) despite being valid on Thameslink / FCC services between
there
and West Hampstead. I have to carry the T&Cs document with me to
prove to gateline staff that TfL staff passes are indeed valid
there!


These gates should also let PAYG customers through, though they
still
have to validate in or out on the validators on platforms 5/6.
However this hasn't worked for a few months.

Thameslink from London Bridge using PAYG is a disaster. The gateline
staff are convinced it isn't valid and the gates don't let you
through. I'm glad to be back on an annual ticket again just to be
able
to pass through there without incident.



You mean.... it *is* valid?

On the Thameslink route it is valid as far as Kentish Town and also at
Elephant & Castle.





Well this is shocking news.

I asked - having already capped my PAYG - and was told that I couldn't
use it. I was going to from London Bridge to Farringdon and there were
problems on the Northern Line. I was made to pay the fare, which really
****ed me off. Had a doctor's appointment so couldn't really mess around
on other tube lines, and I saw that the train was arriving shortly.

I've lost the ticket now so can't get a refund - didn't know I could. I
wonder how much money is being made on the sly here... I mean, it sounds
very strange that in spite of this being a common problem, the gateline
staff are convinced (or pretend to be convinced) that PAYG is not valid.
I mean, they must have been told that the station they work at can take
PAYG. I don't buy it.

Do these people get commission for issuing penalty fares like the
Lambeth traffic wardens do? There must be a reason for the gate staff
continuing to try and get more money off people when they have already a
valid PAYG capped travelcard used up on their card.

This sounds really quite fraudulent, doesn't it? Sounds like a racket. I
mean, posters go up in Johnston font quite quickly if eg service was
****e the previous day or the tubes were hot or whatever, so how come
there isn't a poster up saying PAYG IS VALID AT THIS STATION so that the
gate staff have no excuse?

Clearly the operators are quite happy getting this extra little cashcow
immorally.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"David Biddulph" wrote in
:

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney
Central and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

You can't use Oyster PAYG from Stratford to Silvertown, only to
Canning Town
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...l-fares-2006.p
df#page=12

[But you can instead go to London City Airport on the DLR.]



OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can I
not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG can be
used on the latter?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sat, 13 May 2006 15:28:44 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

"David Biddulph" wrote in
:

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...
OK. question. I can get (I think) a CDR from Stratford to Hackney
Central and back, correct?

But can I not get a CDR from Stratford to Silvertown and back?

On the same line?

Because I can use Oyster PAYG on the latter, but not on the former.

You can't use Oyster PAYG from Stratford to Silvertown, only to
Canning Town
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...l-fares-2006.p
df#page=12

[But you can instead go to London City Airport on the DLR.]



OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can I
not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG can be
used on the latter?

The simplest way to solve this is to ask the National Rail website. You
can get a CDR for the latter journey - £2.10 but only on Silverlink.

Standard day return is £3.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sat, 13 May 2006 15:26:53 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

"TKD" wrote in news:1147497659.88957.0
:

On the Thameslink route it is valid as far as Kentish Town and also at
Elephant & Castle.

Well this is shocking news.

Hardly.

I asked - having already capped my PAYG - and was told that I couldn't
use it. I was going to from London Bridge to Farringdon and there were
problems on the Northern Line. I was made to pay the fare, which really
****ed me off. Had a doctor's appointment so couldn't really mess around
on other tube lines, and I saw that the train was arriving shortly.

Is every one of your journeys by public transport surrounded by crisis?

I've lost the ticket now so can't get a refund - didn't know I could. I
wonder how much money is being made on the sly here... I mean, it sounds
very strange that in spite of this being a common problem, the gateline
staff are convinced (or pretend to be convinced) that PAYG is not valid.
I mean, they must have been told that the station they work at can take
PAYG. I don't buy it.

The staff have probably never been told. I doubt many of them have had
anything resembling intensive training on ticketing and validities.
Doesn't make it right but it's probably the reality.

Do these people get commission for issuing penalty fares like the
Lambeth traffic wardens do? There must be a reason for the gate staff
continuing to try and get more money off people when they have already a
valid PAYG capped travelcard used up on their card.

It would be a very poor scam given that few people make the trip anyway
and even fewer on PAYG. They are unlikely to become millionaires.

This sounds really quite fraudulent, doesn't it? Sounds like a racket. I
mean, posters go up in Johnston font quite quickly if eg service was
****e the previous day or the tubes were hot or whatever, so how come
there isn't a poster up saying PAYG IS VALID AT THIS STATION so that the
gate staff have no excuse?

The difference here is that you are comparing LU practice with the TOCs.
They are not the same and their objectives are quite different. Your
suggested notice would be hugely misleading as it implies that PAYG is
valid from all destinations to London Bridge.

A simple and clear notice explaining that PAYG is valid only on
Thameslink (or First Capital Connect) services between London Bridge and
Kentish Town inclusive might be more appropriate.

Clearly the operators are quite happy getting this extra little cashcow
immorally.

I doubt they know. As I have said elsewhere the only way this stuff gets
solved is if people officially complain. Complain to the MD of FCC and
South Eastern, demand your money back. Complain to Oyster, Complain to
London Travel Watch.

The other point seems to be that the equipment that is there is not
properly explained or looked after. That should be identified too.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

PAYG and Ken on news
 

OK. If I can get a CDR from Stratford to Hackney Central and back, can
I not get a CDR from Stratford to Canning Town and back because PAYG
can be used on the latter?

The simplest way to solve this is to ask the National Rail website.
You can get a CDR for the latter journey - £2.10 but only on
Silverlink.

Standard day return is £3.



So this proves that a CDR and PAYG *can* coexist. :-)

£2.10 CDR on Silverlink, Stratford to Canning Town and back.
or PAYG.

If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sun, 14 May 2006 02:20:43 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:
If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

Because you'd still be in the same situation that we're in now, whereby
some journeys will still be cheaper by purchasing a paper ticket (which,
of course, won't count towards your Oyster cap).

I don't see why that's a huge problem. If you weren't sure how many
journeys you were going to make in a day (i.e. whether you were going
to reach a cap), you might have to choose between a paper
single/return and the daily cap, and if you get it wrong possibly pay
more than you might have done, but that's no worse than how it's been
for decades (and still is in many parts of the country).

If CDRs were withdrawn then you'd be even worse off, as you wouldn't
even have the choice of getting one and possibly saving money.

Except it would be magnified, because you could then hit the cap on
other journeys, and your Oyster would be valid over the section you've
got a paper ticket for, which'd be a right mess from a charging point of
view.

Err, why?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 May 2006 02:20:43 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:
If both "fares" can coexist on the same line, then I don't see why the
eventual introduction of PAYG on all London NR stations would necessarily
mean that CDR would *HAVE* to disappear on these lines.

Because you'd still be in the same situation that we're in now, whereby
some journeys will still be cheaper by purchasing a paper ticket (which,
of course, won't count towards your Oyster cap).

I don't see why that's a huge problem. If you weren't sure how many
journeys you were going to make in a day (i.e. whether you were going
to reach a cap), you might have to choose between a paper
single/return and the daily cap, and if you get it wrong possibly pay
more than you might have done, but that's no worse than how it's been
for decades (and still is in many parts of the country).

If CDRs were withdrawn then you'd be even worse off, as you wouldn't
even have the choice of getting one and possibly saving money.

This is probably what will happen.

Remember it was once possible to get cheaper 'returns'
on the tube, and then the abolished them.

tim


Except it would be magnified, because you could then hit the cap on
other journeys, and your Oyster would be valid over the section you've
got a paper ticket for, which'd be a right mess from a charging point of
view.

Err, why?

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

At the "State of London" debate today I went to the session on transport
with Peter Hendy (TfL Commissioner). One of the audience raised the example
of travelling from Clapham to Waterloo - from Clapham Junction a CDR with a
Young Person's Railcard is about £1.60 wheras on Oyster PAYG Clapham Common
to Waterloo and back is £4.00.

Hendy said he was surprised that there are any places where National Rail
fares are cheaper but declined to give explicit assurances that fares will
not be pushed up if/when PAYG is rolled out on National Rail.

And what about Ealing Broadway to Paddington? That's about £2.70 CDR.

Colin McKenzie

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sun, 14 May 2006 17:28:56 +0100, Colin McKenzie wrote:

At the "State of London" debate today I went to the session on transport
with Peter Hendy (TfL Commissioner). One of the audience raised the example
of travelling from Clapham to Waterloo - from Clapham Junction a CDR with a
Young Person's Railcard is about £1.60 wheras on Oyster PAYG Clapham Common
to Waterloo and back is £4.00.

Hendy said he was surprised that there are any places where National Rail
fares are cheaper but declined to give explicit assurances that fares will
not be pushed up if/when PAYG is rolled out on National Rail.

And what about Ealing Broadway to Paddington? That's about £2.70 CDR.

If Mr Hendy is "surprised" then he must really have no idea. There
must be many many such examples - it's easy enough to find them even
if you only look at routes where PAYG is already valid and even if you
disregard Railcard discounts.

e.g.
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston: CDR £5.30; PAYG £5.80
Harrow & Wealdstone to Queens Park: CDR £3.40; PAYG £3.60
Harrow & Wealdstone to Stonebridge Park: CDR £3.00; PAYG £3.60
Willesden Junction to Euston: CDR £4.00; PAYG £4.90
Wembley Central to Queens Park: CDR £2.50; PAYG £3.60
West Ruislip to Marylebone: CDR £4.50; PAYG £5.80
South Ruislip to Marylebone: CDR £4.50; PAYG £4.90
Kentish Town to Kings Cross Thameslink: CDR £3.20; PAYG £4.00
Kentish Town to London Bridge: CDR £3.20; PAYG £4.00
Seven Sisters to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
Walthamstow Central to Liverpool Street: CDR £4.00; PAYG £4.90
Stratford to Liverpool Street: CDR £3.60; PAYG £4.90
West Ham to Fenchurch Street: CDR £3.10; PAYG £4.90
Limehouse to Fenchurch Street: CDR £3.00; PAYG £4.00
Upminster to Barking: CDR £2.50; PAYG £3.60
Barking to Limehouse: CDR £3.00; PAYG £3.60

In some of these cases, the CDR remains cheaper even if one or both of
the outward/return journeys are during evenings/weekends when the PAYG
fares are discounted.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

asdf wrote:

If Mr Hendy is "surprised" then he must really have no idea. There
must be many many such examples - it's easy enough to find them even
if you only look at routes where PAYG is already valid and even if you
disregard Railcard discounts.

e.g.
Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston: CDR £5.30; PAYG £5.80
[snip]

In some of these cases, the CDR remains cheaper even if one or both of
the outward/return journeys are during evenings/weekends when the PAYG
fares are discounted.

"No need to plan"?!

The whole thing gets messier and messier. Trying to explain to students
whether they benefit more from the TfL season discount or buying daily with
a YPR gets even more messy.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On Sun, 14 May 2006 20:51:40 +0100, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

In some of these cases, the CDR remains cheaper even if one or both of
the outward/return journeys are during evenings/weekends when the PAYG
fares are discounted.

"No need to plan"?!

The whole thing gets messier and messier. Trying to explain to students
whether they benefit more from the TfL season discount or buying daily with
a YPR gets even more messy.

Perhaps, but I'd hate to see the solution (if one is really needed)
being to simply withdraw all the CDRs and stop giving Railcard
discounts.

(It really irritates me when a company passes off a price increase as
"making our charges easier to understand" or some such.)

PAYG and Ken on news
 

On 15 May 2006 05:43:48 -0700, "John B" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2006 16:49:00 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

[payg on Thameslink]

If forced to do it again, I'd take a copy of the TfL fares leaflet as
proof that I wasn't a fare-dodger.

Or I would simply threaten the staff with a report to Charles Horton,
their new MD, and Keith Ludeman the Go Ahead Board Member for rail. The
only way these nonsenses get sorted is if the person at the top is told
what is not working.

Go-Ahead here because the gateline at London Bridge is manned by
Southern staff?

Mr Horton is now MD of South East Trains which transferred to GoVia
control on 1 April 2006.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2006 16:49:00 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

[payg on Thameslink]

If forced to do it again, I'd take a copy of the TfL fares leaflet as
proof that I wasn't a fare-dodger.

Or I would simply threaten the staff with a report to Charles Horton,
their new MD, and Keith Ludeman the Go Ahead Board Member for rail. The
only way these nonsenses get sorted is if the person at the top is told
what is not working.

I'd rather have evidence to prove them wrong quickly, than get into a
confrontation every time I want to use the station.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
[payg on Thameslink]

If forced to do it again, I'd take a copy of the TfL fares leaflet as
proof that I wasn't a fare-dodger.

Or I would simply threaten the staff with a report to Charles Horton,
their new MD, and Keith Ludeman the Go Ahead Board Member for rail. The
only way these nonsenses get sorted is if the person at the top is told
what is not working.

Go-Ahead here because the gateline at London Bridge is manned by
Southern staff?

Mr Horton is now MD of South East Trains which transferred to GoVia
control on 1 April 2006.

Sorry, South East Trains staff - I've only ever caught TL and Southern
from London Bridge so I forgot it was also an SET station. So the
gatelines on the through platforms are manned by SET and the
terminating platforms are Southern, then?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

PAYG and Ken on news
 

Dave Arquati wrote:

This is almost what happens on Silverlink Metro already; LU (paper)
singles are valid, as are NR cheap day singles/returns. You can choose
which to use depending on which is the cheapest for your requirements.



Does this work? If in general customers making the same journeys are
now paying less. Will the companies not raise their prices to recover
the loss?

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

PAYG and Ken on news
 

David Howdon wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

This is almost what happens on Silverlink Metro already; LU (paper)
singles are valid, as are NR cheap day singles/returns. You can choose
which to use depending on which is the cheapest for your requirements.



Does this work? If in general customers making the same journeys are
now paying less. Will the companies not raise their prices to recover
the loss?

I think some tickets are protected by limiting any allowed increase to
RPI+1% (not sure if that's just season tickets). Travelcard seasons are
set by the Mayor & TfL anyway.

Raising prices on other tickets wouldn't do them any good. It would
encourage people to switch to cheaper Oyster fares (although they will
get the appropriate part of the revenue from those anyway).

The only option to increase profits (or reduce losses) would be to
*lower* (off-peak) fares in the hope that more people will travel, with
the additional travellers using their own paper fares. They wouldn't
lower peak (rail-only) fares because the price elasticity of demand for
peak travel is low (i.e. changing peak ticket prices doesn't affect peak
demand very much) and because services are overcrowded already.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London