Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In message , Joe Patrick
writes
My son bought a Priv Day Travelcard from Baker Street Tube station this
morning and it had 4 yellow arrows at the bottom? Could someone please
tell me what this means, or are all tickets being issued like this.
With a Staff Oyster, havent bought a normal ticket in months!

I went to East London last Friday from Harrow and my ticket had yellow
triangles on the bottom.
And when I returned on Sunday from East London the ticket I brought had
green triangles on. I have noticed that East London seems to have green
triangles. And North West green.
Do any other areas have different colours?
Do they mean anything?
Is it to identify the area the ticket was brought in for gate staff?

--
CJG

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:51:33 +0100, CJG
wrote:

Do any other areas have different colours?

I believe it's as follows:

Yellow = West
Red = North
Green = East
Blue = South

Zone 1 stations shouldn't have any triangles.

Do they mean anything?
Is it to identify the area the ticket was brought in for gate staff?

Yup...If you bought, for example, a Zone 2 to 6 Travelcard at
Cockfosters at the Northern end of the Piccadilly, and got to Bow Road,
in the Eastern sector, for example, in less than an hour (Piccadilly
Line to Kings Cross St Pancras, then Hammersmith & City Line) it would
raise suspicion that you had travelled via Zone 1...If, however, you
took over 2 hours, and could give a logical route (e.g. Piccadilly Line
to Finsbury Park, Victoria Line to Highbury & Islington, Silverlink to
Stratford, Docklands Light Railway to Bow Church), you'd be let through.

HTH,

Barry

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Is it to identify the area the ticket was brought in for gate staff?

Yup...If you bought, for example, a Zone 2 to 6 Travelcard at
Cockfosters at the Northern end of the Piccadilly, and got to Bow Road,
in the Eastern sector, for example, in less than an hour (Piccadilly
Line to Kings Cross St Pancras, then Hammersmith & City Line) it would
raise suspicion that you had travelled via Zone 1...If, however, you
took over 2 hours, and could give a logical route (e.g. Piccadilly Line
to Finsbury Park, Victoria Line to Highbury & Islington, Silverlink to
Stratford, Docklands Light Railway to Bow Church), you'd be let through.

I read that and, whilst I understand that in terms of principle the
staff/company ought to be well within their rights, I'd be shocked if they
actually refused passage on such a basis.

Is there a chart of "minimum possible permissible journey times"? (Surely
not.)

K

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In message , Kieran Turner
writes
I read that and, whilst I understand that in terms of principle the
staff/company ought to be well within their rights, I'd be shocked if
they actually refused passage on such a basis.

If you have a valid ticket. Or a ticket which seems to be valid then you
should be allowed to pass through the gate. No matter how long it took
to travel from your destination.
Rather amusing at Harrow this evening. Peak time. Everyone trying to get
home or somewhere. Both main ticket machines out of order. Only one
person selling tickets (as well as selling tickets to people on the
other side of gates without tickets). Of course there were the legally
required (according to L.U. safety handbook) three L.U. Idle staff by
the ticket gate. And a massive queue for the one open ticket office.
Then some bright spark had the idea to open the manual gate and let
everyone travel for nothing and buy a ticket at their destination. Saved
me £3.40 as there is never anyone to check tickets at the station I was
going to. So cheers London Underground for your incompetence, saved me a
few quid.
--
CJG

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

CJG writes
Saved me £3.40 as there is never anyone to check tickets at the station
I was going to. So cheers London Underground for your incompetence,
saved me a few quid.

If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

--
Dave

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

"CJG" wrote in message
...
Rather amusing at Harrow this evening. Peak time. Everyone trying to get
home or somewhere. Both main ticket machines out of order. Only one
person selling tickets (as well as selling tickets to people on the
other side of gates without tickets). Of course there were the legally
required (according to L.U. safety handbook) three L.U. Idle staff by
the ticket gate. And a massive queue for the one open ticket office.
Then some bright spark had the idea to open the manual gate and let
everyone travel for nothing and buy a ticket at their destination. Saved
me £3.40 as there is never anyone to check tickets at the station I was
going to. So cheers London Underground for your incompetence, saved me a
few quid.

Hopefully this is something the new management will change. It is
ridiculous that some staff are not trained to work in the ticket office, or
refill the change in the ticket machines.

At my local station the guy manning the ticket barriers sits in his
'assistance' box with his back to the barriers, completely oblivious to
people with luggage or prams trying to get through the side gate. I once
asked him why the ticket office was shut in the middle of the day. He
replied that the ticket seller 'was busy'. I asked him how he could be busy
with the ticket office shut and the guy shouted at me 'look, i'm doing the
best I can here, we're short staffed' ... at which point he went back to
his box to read his Metro ...

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

Dave wrote:
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

Get real. How many people would do that? Just you I think.

Perhaps London Underground have done their sums and *overall*, their
"apparent incompetence" plan of allowing ticket purchase 80% of the time and
not worrying about the 20% that get away gets them more money than paying
people to allow/enfore ticket purchase 100% of the time, so be it. It's
simple economics.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

Cal Nihoni writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

Get real. How many people would do that?

So you're dishonest. What else would you steal?

--
Dave

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

"CJG" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave
writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

And L.U. could have provided enough resources at Harrow to be able to
sell tickets to everyone who needed one.

There were enough resources. They were just doing the wrong things.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

CJG writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

And L.U. could have provided enough resources at Harrow to be able to
sell tickets to everyone who needed one.

So if you had a trolley full of shopping at your local supermarket, but
not every single checkout was in operation - would you leave without
paying whilst taking all the goods and claim it was the supermarket's
fault? Or would that be considered theft?

*If* there was absolutely no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket at
your destination, then (and only then) would I say you had a point. If
you had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at your destination, but
chose not to do so simply because there wasn't someone there to *make*
you buy one - that makes you a thief.

--
Dave

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In message , Dave
writes
So if you had a trolley full of shopping at your local supermarket, but
not every single checkout was in operation - would you leave without
paying whilst taking all the goods and claim it was the supermarket's
fault? Or would that be considered theft?

*If* there was absolutely no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket
at your destination, then (and only then) would I say you had a point.
If you had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at your destination, but
chose not to do so simply because there wasn't someone there to *make*
you buy one - that makes you a thief.

As I stated. Someone in a London Underground uniform announced to the
queue for the ticket office that if anyone wanted to pay at the
destination that they could and then opened the manual gate and let
quite a few people (including me) through.
Not all the ticket machines had queues as the two main ones were out of
order. Not all the ticket offices had queues as only one of them was
actually staffed.
If there had been massive queues for ticket machines and all ticket
offices then sure I would have waited.
The point I was making is that they couldn't handle the number of people
at the single ticket window open because the machines were not working
and they didn't have the other ticket window open. Because of this they
had to let people travel without tickets on the basis they would pay at
their destination. I can assure you without doubt that I wouldn't be the
only one who didn't pay. And Im sure others claimed to have started
their journey in a different Zone to Zone 5 (which Harrow is in)
--
CJG

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

CJG writes
In message , Dave
writes
So if you had a trolley full of shopping at your local supermarket,
but not every single checkout was in operation - would you leave
without paying whilst taking all the goods and claim it was the
supermarket's fault? Or would that be considered theft?

*If* there was absolutely no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket
at your destination, then (and only then) would I say you had a point.
you had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at your destination, but
chose not to do so simply because there wasn't someone there to *make*
you buy one - that makes you a thief.

As I stated.

Yes you did. Repeating it doesn't change the facts.

The staff gave you a break by letting you travel without buying a ticket
beforehand. You abused their trust by choosing not to purchase a ticket
at the destination.

Just pointing out that other people may be as dishonest as you does not
negate your actions. No-one forced you not to buy a ticket at your
destination - that was your choice. You *chose* to be a thief.

--
Dave

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In message , Dave
writes
The staff gave you a break by letting you travel without buying a
ticket beforehand. You abused their trust by choosing not to purchase
a ticket at the destination.

Stop trying to sound like they were doing me a favour!
Just how long would you wait in a restaurant for the waiter to come with
your bill before you walked out? 2 hours? 3 hours?
--
CJG

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:32:08 +0100, CJG
wrote:

In message , Dave
writes
The staff gave you a break by letting you travel without buying a
ticket beforehand. You abused their trust by choosing not to purchase
a ticket at the destination.

Stop trying to sound like they were doing me a favour!
Just how long would you wait in a restaurant for the waiter to come with
your bill before you walked out? 2 hours? 3 hours?

Not an accurate comparison.

In a restaurant you consume the product _before_ you pay.

In a supermarket you consume the product _after_ you pay.

A more reasonable question would be.

How long would you wait in a checkout queue before wheeling the
trolley out without paying?

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

CJG writes
The staff gave you a break by letting you travel without buying a
ticket beforehand. You abused their trust by choosing not to purchase
ticket at the destination.

Stop trying to sound like they were doing me a favour!

They let you travel with pre-purchasing a ticket.

Just how long would you wait in a restaurant for the waiter to come
with your bill before you walked out? 2 hours? 3 hours?

Get up and find a member of staff, or you could tot-it up yourself and
leave the appropriate mount of money.

Stop trying to justify yourself - it's quite simple you can't. You made
a choice to be a thief, however you try to gloss it over.

I just find it bizarre that having done that, you choose to boast about
it in a public forum. Very odd.

--
Dave

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In article , Cal Nihoni
writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and publicly
admit your guilt as well. How odd.

Get real. How many people would do that? Just you I think.

The fact that others are thieves doesn't mean he should become one.

[And, yes, I have paid in similar circumstances.]

Perhaps London Underground have done their sums and *overall*, their
"apparent incompetence" plan of allowing ticket purchase 80% of the time and
not worrying about the 20% that get away gets them more money than paying
people to allow/enfore ticket purchase 100% of the time, so be it. It's
simple economics.

I was once told that Marks & Spencers, many years ago, changed from
doing detailed daily stocktakes to having a much looser system because
the savings in staff pay (and the staff benefit of reduced need for
unsocial hours) outweighed the losses from additional theft.

It may be both economic and realistic to live with a certain level of
theft rather than try to stop it happening, but the thieves are still
thieving scum.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article , Cal Nihoni
writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and
publicly admit your guilt as well. How odd.

Get real. How many people would do that? Just you I think.

The fact that others are thieves doesn't mean he should become one.

[And, yes, I have paid in similar circumstances.]

You mean you have voluntarily donated[1] the price of your journey to LU by
buying a ticket for another journey of the same price? How very generous of
you. However, I think many people would regard not paying in these
circumstances not as theft but as LU allowing them to travel free by not
providing the opportunity for payment *for that journey*[1].

([1] The point here is that in the absence of staff at the destination, the
only way to pay is to purchase a ticket from the machine for the reverse
journey, which would not have been valid for the actual journey undertaken,
and is therefore technically a donation.)

To take another example, if you inadvertently overrun by 5 minutes the
paid-for time at a parking meter, do you regard that as the theft of the
extra 20p or whatever? If so, how do you proceed? Or like most people, do
you just drive away relieved that you've got away with it? I'm just trying
to explore how absolute your view of theft is.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

Richard J. wrote:
([1] The point here is that in the absence of staff at the
destination, the only way to pay is to purchase a ticket from the
machine for the reverse journey, which would not have been valid for
the actual journey undertaken, and is therefore technically a
donation.)

And indeed that reverse-journey purchase simply serves to skew London
Transport's statistics, since they will think an artificially high number of
people are making the B to A journey when they're not; presumably they will
then concentrate on providing extra staff at B since this is - to them -
where all the tickets seem to be being bought, and ultimately removing even
more staff hours from station A, which was the short staffed one in the
first place.

OK I accept that the above is tenuous and taking things to extreme, but just
demonstrating that the "everyone who doesn't pay even when LU can't be
bothered to let them pay" brigade are technically making the issue worse.

To take another example, if you inadvertently overrun by 5 minutes the
paid-for time at a parking meter, do you regard that as the theft of
the extra 20p or whatever? If so, how do you proceed? Or like most
people, do you just drive away relieved that you've got away with it?
I'm just trying to explore how absolute your view of theft is.

Precisely. Sometimes life gives you these breaks and it's only natural to
take them.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:17:09 +0100 CJG wrote:
} In message , Dave
} writes
} So if you had a trolley full of shopping at your local supermarket, but
} not every single checkout was in operation - would you leave without
} paying whilst taking all the goods and claim it was the supermarket's
} fault? Or would that be considered theft?
}
} *If* there was absolutely no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket
} at your destination, then (and only then) would I say you had a point.
} If you had an opportunity to purchase a ticket at your destination, but
} chose not to do so simply because there wasn't someone there to *make*
} you buy one - that makes you a thief.
}
} As I stated. Someone in a London Underground uniform announced to the
} queue for the ticket office that if anyone wanted to pay at the
} destination that they could and then opened the manual gate and let
} quite a few people (including me) through.

I would suggests that the option being offered was to pay at the
destination or wait to pay there. Not to pay at the destination or not
pay at all.

Matthew
--
Il est important d'être un homme ou une femme en colère; le jour où nous
quitte la colère, ou le désir, c'est cuit. - Barbara

http://www.calmeilles.co.uk/

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

"CJG" wrote in message
...

As I stated. Someone in a London Underground uniform announced to the
queue for the ticket office that if anyone wanted to pay at the
destination that they could and then opened the manual gate and let
quite a few people (including me) through.
Not all the ticket machines had queues as the two main ones were out of
order. Not all the ticket offices had queues as only one of them was
actually staffed.
If there had been massive queues for ticket machines and all ticket
offices then sure I would have waited.
The point I was making is that they couldn't handle the number of people
at the single ticket window open because the machines were not working
and they didn't have the other ticket window open. Because of this they
had to let people travel without tickets on the basis they would pay at
their destination. I can assure you without doubt that I wouldn't be the
only one who didn't pay. And Im sure others claimed to have started
their journey in a different Zone to Zone 5 (which Harrow is in)

Passed to the appropriate revenue inspectors manager.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

"Colin McKenzie" wrote in message
...
2) Clapham Junction, north end. This time a new machine which doesn't do
any railcard fares, ticket office closed, no 'permit to travel' machine,
no time to go to the south end. I can't find any fare on the machine
within 30p of what I should pay, so don't buy a ticket. As it turns out,
my destination has no ticket machine of any kind, so free ride. I think
that's reasonable and my conscience is clear.

The new NR ticket machines are an absolute disgrace, the user interface is
terrible and slow. The old push-button ticket machines were much quicker.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In article , Cal Nihoni
writes
([1] The point here is that in the absence of staff at the
destination, the only way to pay is to purchase a ticket from the
machine for the reverse journey,

And indeed that reverse-journey purchase simply serves to skew London
Transport's statistics, since they will think an artificially high number of
people are making the B to A journey when they're not;

Except that LUL tickets aren't sold from A to B, they're sold from A to
any location within a set of zones.

And if (as I snipped) this causes LUL to put more people at B, they'll
start selling excess fares from A making it clear where the real problem
is.

OK I accept that the above is tenuous and taking things to extreme,

It also assumes this is a common situation. I strongly suspect it's way
down in the noise.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In article , Richard J.
writes
If you were honest, you could have purchased your ticket from the
machine at your destination - but you decide not to do so and
publicly admit your guilt as well. How odd.

Get real. How many people would do that? Just you I think.

The fact that others are thieves doesn't mean he should become one.

[And, yes, I have paid in similar circumstances.]

You mean you have voluntarily donated[1] the price of your journey to LU by
buying a ticket for another journey of the same price?

Actually, no.

Firstly, the actual circumstances were WAGN, not LUL. Secondly, I went
and bought a ticket for the journey I had just completed from the ticket
office.

How very generous of
you.

No, how very honest of me.

To take another example, if you inadvertently overrun by 5 minutes the
paid-for time at a parking meter, do you regard that as the theft of the
extra 20p or whatever? If so, how do you proceed?

I don't. It's an offence to put extra money in the meter. It's not an
offence to overstay a few minutes, but there is an excess charge *if
demanded*. So I'm legal.

Or like most people, do
you just drive away relieved that you've got away with it?

I'm relieved. But it's not the same situation.

I also sometimes overpay the meter compared with the time I'm expecting
to stay, so it balances.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:23:42 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:


You mean you have voluntarily donated[1] the price of your journey to LU by
buying a ticket for another journey of the same price?


Firstly, the actual circumstances were WAGN, not LUL. Secondly, I went
and bought a ticket for the journey I had just completed from the ticket
office.

So, the ticket machine at your destination sold tickets FROM your
departure station TO your destination? How unusual.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

K wrote:
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:23:42 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:


You mean you have voluntarily donated[1] the price of your journey to LU by
buying a ticket for another journey of the same price?


Firstly, the actual circumstances were WAGN, not LUL. Secondly, I went
and bought a ticket for the journey I had just completed from the ticket
office.


So, the ticket machine at your destination sold tickets FROM your
departure station TO your destination? How unusual.

NR stations can sell tickets from any NR station to any other NR
station, even if it is neither. In my experience, anyway. Perhaps YMMV.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:49:21 +0100, K wrote:

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:23:42 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:


Firstly, the actual circumstances were WAGN, not LUL. Secondly, I went
and bought a ticket for the journey I had just completed from the ticket
office.

So, the ticket machine at your destination sold tickets FROM your
departure station TO your destination? How unusual.


Sorry, I just reread your post - I thought you said you'd bout it from
the ticket machine. Apologies.

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

In article , K
writes
Sorry, I just reread your post - I thought you said you'd bout it from
the ticket machine. Apologies.

No problem.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Yellow Arrows on Tube Ticket
 

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:50:20 -0000, Mike Pellatt
wrote:


where I get a voucher that I then have to take to
the ticket office to exchange for the travelcard. How stupid
is all that ?? It reminds me I must write to SWT for the details
of their recovery plan to fix this customer dis-service :-)

Thats what I would have to do if I didn't have a Season Ticket, and my
station is within the area! Mine is an unmanned station with no
ticket machine or permit machine, so you have to buy a ticket form the
conductor on the train. Sometimes they have a few card travelcardsbut
mostly they only give you a paper ticket which needs to be exchanged
for a card.

I don't know what happens if you get off the train at an unmanned
stion and need to get a bus or tube though, as these are not accepted.