On Sun, 8 Oct 2006, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Has anyone else noted similar problems?

UCL's main problem last year was that it had fewer application forms than
students - at least once the first wave of people who'd messed up their
form went back for a fresh one. Why on earth can't you get the forms from
a tube station, or download them online? I haven't seen the online
registration this year, but that sounds like a step in the right
direction.

UCL's main problem *this* year is that they computerised the annual
re-enrolment process, and in the process decided to throw away all the
data about who funds graduate students, meaning i had to rummage around in
boxes of three-year-old correspondence to find a letter proving that my
research council were actually paying me. I wouldn't want to be the people
in the fees office dealing with seven thousand and some such letters, but
to be honest, i have zero sympathy for them.

Rant over!

tom

--
When you mentioned INSERT-MIND-INPUT ... did they look at you like this?

Tom Anderson wrote:

UCL's main problem last year was that it had fewer application forms than
students - at least once the first wave of people who'd messed up their
form went back for a fresh one. Why on earth can't you get the forms from
a tube station, or download them online? I haven't seen the online
registration this year, but that sounds like a step in the right
direction.

Sounds familiar - QMUL has run out of forms before. They're issued on
request (rather than putting out a rack) but we still go through a lot.

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:28:10 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

I have some knowledge of the history of this, having started at
university in 1997 and no doubt fulfilling the definition of a ULU
"old hand" (in fact, I'm given to understand my name is still mud
there, but that's a different story!)

As I recall (it's a bit fuzzy bearing in mind this goes back nearly 10
years, I lived on campus in 97-8 and there's been a lot of water under
the bridge/alcohol down the neck since then!):

The student discount was introduced for the 1998-99 academic year, and
initially only applied to LT Cards, since ATOC wouldn't play ball. The
discount was negotiated with TfL by ULU, and then when it was all
agreed, NUS came along and said "we want our logo all over the place"
despite the fact they did nothing towards it. The aforementioned
campaign extended validity both to students over 25 and for all
students throughout the summer - I think that was after the first year
of the scheme's operation. ATOC finally came on board in 2001 (I
think), and NUS had bugger all to do with that either.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

As has been said above, you'd need to hop off at amersham to complete
your Oyster journey, and buy a return from there to Aylesbury (£7.00
at present).

On the way home you don't need to worry about the gates being closed,
as they are always open if no-one is manning the gateline, and even if
they are closed, there's three remote readers on the southbound
platform - one by the manual gate, one by the bottom of the footbridge,
and one toward the northern end of the platform (by the bike shed).
Just make sure there's enough PAYG to get moving, and touch it once on
the remote reader, and like magic it'll say "enter" and conveniently
remind you of your remaining balance before you leap like a gazelle
back on your train. Or wait 10 minutes for the next met if you're too
slow.

Yes. Because of the delays in getting a card., you are also prevented
from buying an annual ticket (and therefore further savings). The card is
encoded to only sell tickets with a discount if they expire before 30
September. Last year I didn't get my card until part way through October.
I asked to have the ticket backdated to start 1 October so it would allow
the discount (it worked out cheaper for me still), but was told it could
not be done.

Curious - I've purchased annual tickets at Stratford, Vauxhall and Russell
Square. Each time it was some days into October and so they sold me it at
an annual ticket price but running from that day until September 30th.
(And I always had the fares leaflet with me to check.)

[snip]

Try Russell Square or somewhere similarly near to a university campus.

Thanks. I will try there next time.

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

The student discount predates Ken - it was around at least as early as
1998.
Although at first it was very much aimed at full time undergraduates -
not
available over the summer and not available to students over 25. There
was a
successful campaign on this spearheaded by the President of one
particular
UofL college's Students' Union - can anyone guess which?

Imperial?

No - Birkbeck.

I didn't go to university in London, and the university scene in the
metropolis is not my first tongue as it were. But of course Birkbeck
was the prime candidate to lead such a campaign. I heartily approve the
ethos of the aforesaid institution.


And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

The information (and drafts of press letters) that I've seen were focused
very much on the scheme being only open to full time 18-24 * year old
students and not available over summer. A lot of postgraduate, mature and
part-time students found this outrageous - hence the Birkbeck campaign.

* I've no idea if it went under to 16-17 years olds.

The present scheme isn't open to 16/17 year olds. I think they had to
wait until Livingstone's TfL schemes BICBW.

Some time I'll post a request here on utl for everyone to send in
copies of any old PDFs of TfL's Fares booklets, along with PDFs of the
London Connections map, and put them up on a website (perhaps just for
a few weeks before the copyright lawyers have a fit) so anyone who's
interested could get themselves a copy.

Of course PDFs of these documents are a pretty recent innovation - they
definitely don't go back to '98. One can of course search around the
archives of utl for past discussions pf this scheme, though it can be
time consuming.

James Farrar wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:28:10 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

I have some knowledge of the history of this, having started at
university in 1997 and no doubt fulfilling the definition of a ULU
"old hand" (in fact, I'm given to understand my name is still mud
there, but that's a different story!)

As I recall (it's a bit fuzzy bearing in mind this goes back nearly 10
years, I lived on campus in 97-8 and there's been a lot of water under
the bridge/alcohol down the neck since then!):

The student discount was introduced for the 1998-99 academic year, and
initially only applied to LT Cards, since ATOC wouldn't play ball. The
discount was negotiated with TfL by ULU, and then when it was all
agreed, NUS came along and said "we want our logo all over the place"
despite the fact they did nothing towards it. The aforementioned
campaign extended validity both to students over 25 and for all
students throughout the summer - I think that was after the first year
of the scheme's operation. ATOC finally came on board in 2001 (I
think), and NUS had bugger all to do with that either.


Thanks for the info. I remember now it was all LT Cards only, as was a
(later ?) scheme for 16/17 year olds, until ATOC eventually go in on
the act.

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there? Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Sounds like you miss your hazy uni days (daze?!) just a little!

Mizter T wrote:

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

And in a way has been revived for the Oyster cap.

I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there?

Nope - nor on the old card I had. Is it on the application form? (I didn't
stop to check.)

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU. Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

Of the others, I believe the London Business School isn't affiliated. The
central institutes and activities of the University aren't either - they
don't have much in the way of SUs of their own and ULU leaves NUS
affiliation to the colleges. I've no idea about the FEs and other colleges
in London.

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

And in a way has been revived for the Oyster cap.


In a way yes, and it has remained so because of intransigence and/or
straightforward inertia.

Though the LT Card was of course the forerunner to the peak Travelcard
but valid on LT only. And it was a pretty price, though much the same
can be said of it's replacement.

The Oyster cap (both peak and off-peak) is at least 50p cheaper than
it's quasi-equivalent Day Travelcard. As well as that being a good
thing in and of itself it also provides a pricing factor which
differentiates itself from the Day Travelcard (a clue to passengers
shall we say).


I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there?

Nope - nor on the old card I had. Is it on the application form? (I didn't
stop to check.)

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU. Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

I didn't know about either Imperial's non-affiliation to the NUS, nor
it's imminent departure from the UoL. That seems like a big step, but
of course I know nothing of the background - apart from quickly reading
just now that it has gained degree awarding powers. One of my
neighbours is a Prof at Imperial, he's a quiet guy but I'll accost him
some day and ask him about it.

My ill-informed logic suggests that a London SU would do well to have
an affiliation with some umbrella entity. I guess the choice isn't that
great - ULU or NUS (or both). That said AFAICS it's even less of a
choice outside London - NUS or not NUS. Despite all it's faults I can't
help but feel that the benefits of affiliating with the NUS outweigh
the cons - esp. if the SU is out of London, as there's nowhere else to
turn. But I confess I know little about all these machinations.


Of the others, I believe the London Business School isn't affiliated. The
central institutes and activities of the University aren't either - they
don't have much in the way of SUs of their own and ULU leaves NUS
affiliation to the colleges. I've no idea about the FEs and other colleges
in London.

But say at SOAS whilst the SOAS SU isn't NUS affiliated it is
affiliated to ULU?

By the by I've just been most amused by reading the Wikipedia page on
ULU [1] - in particular the semi-coherent section on the handover
party, and what appears to be an arcane yet absurd dispute on when
exactly this should occur. Some of the stereotypes about student
politics are not that far off the mark!


-----
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULU

Mizter T wrote:

I also guess NR don't issue such YPR-discounted Travelcards as zones
A-D is LU territory, which is a shame. It's also possible to buy from
NR ticket offices a _non-discounted_ Day Travelcard that covers zones
A-D - see section L of the NR National Fares Manual (page L1 [2]) - but
seemingly you can only do this for the off-peak Fay Travelcard, not the
peak version.


Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

It was covered in an issue of Newsrail Express, but said issue appears
to be no longer on the ATOC website.

HTH,

Barry

[1] Unless you want one with a Y-P or Forces Discount, it's a weekday,
and they're using FasTIS, as it erroneously applies the £8 Minimum Fare

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard