On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary.

That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".

Only where they can do the same with paper tickets.

I don't follow this. Can you explain further?

Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.

Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.

Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets?

It happens to me maybe 5-6 times a year, so of the order of 1 gate
usage in 250.

About half the time, I notice it happening, and stop dead on the far
side of the gate, causing the perpetrator to be foiled by the closing
gate.

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?

Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can
jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the
final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare.

Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but
fewer than would if they only have to do it once.

If LU didn't bother to spec the system properly and just bought
whatever
the manufacturer dished up then more fool them.



Totally agree but it's the passenger that's going to suffer in the
short/medium term by being charged £4 penalties.

and believe me there's director-level meetings going on regarding this
farce!

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary.
That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".
Only where they can do the same with paper tickets.

I don't follow this. Can you explain further?

Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users
can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct
fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users. And, for that
matter, Travelcard users. It's only PAYG users who are being subjected
to this additional degree of scrutiny.

Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated
station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated
station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones.

Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.
Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen
in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone.
Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets?

It happens to me maybe 5-6 times a year, so of the order of 1 gate
usage in 250.

In other words, the issue can't be ignored entirely, but it's not a
terribly big deal either.

About half the time, I notice it happening, and stop dead on the far
side of the gate, causing the perpetrator to be foiled by the closing
gate.

Nice!

Aside from history, why does the Tube use gates rather than turnstiles?
It seems to me that turnstiles would be more resistant to this sort of
abuse. (Although the floor-to-ceiling "high entry-exit turnstiles" that
are installed in New York at unattended entrances make it particularly
easy. Just the other day, I saw two high school kids get ticketed for
sharing a fare.)

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?

Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can
jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the
final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare.

Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but
fewer than would if they only have to do it once.

What about ungated stations? Jumping/following yields a free ride,
regardless of fare structure.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote:

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary.
That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare
instead of the correct fare for their journey".
Only where they can do the same with paper tickets.

I don't follow this. Can you explain further?

Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users
can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct
fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users.

No. Paper ticket holders have to jump/follow through two gates, not
one.

Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated
station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated
station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones.

How's he supposed to get a Z1 paper ticket if he starts in Z6?

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?

Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can
jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the
final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare.

Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but
fewer than would if they only have to do it once.

What about ungated stations? Jumping/following yields a free ride,
regardless of fare structure.

If it's done at *both* ends, yes.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway wrote:
Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users
can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct
fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users. And, for that
matter, Travelcard users. It's only PAYG users who are being subjected
to this additional degree of scrutiny.

Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated
station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated
station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones.

The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user
that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated
zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user
will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget"
to touch out to save themselves some money.

David

"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...

Aside from history, why does the Tube use gates rather than turnstiles?

They are far more convenient for passengers than turnstiles (comparing
London with Paris, for example).

It seems to me that turnstiles would be more resistant to this sort of
abuse.

Not on the evidence of Paris, where several times I've seen people jumping
over turnstiles. There is always a balance to be struck between convenience
to the law-abiding majority and measures to defeat the criminals.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

David Walters wrote:
The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user
that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated
zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user
will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget"
to touch out to save themselves some money.

and what about someone with a zone 1 season AND some pre-pay on their
oyster?

They can travel to any ungated station outside (if it has a touch-out,
like a DLR station). If an inspector comes outside of zone they just
say they are going out of zone which is allowed as they have some
pre-pay. Then when they get to the other end they just don't touch out.

In message .com, Earl
Purple writes

David Walters wrote:
The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user
that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated
zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user
will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget"
to touch out to save themselves some money.

and what about someone with a zone 1 season AND some pre-pay on their
oyster?

They can travel to any ungated station outside (if it has a touch-out,
like a DLR station). If an inspector comes outside of zone they just
say they are going out of zone which is allowed as they have some
pre-pay. Then when they get to the other end they just don't touch out.

The system is unlikely to catch them at the moment, although if Oyster
gets expanded beyond London there is less opportunity for this.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Paul Corfield wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm

"Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face
paying more for their journeys.
From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the
reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4.

The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or
ended at certain national rail stations.

Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know
the correct fare to apply."

How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

I don't know where you work in LU, but it seems to me that there is also
a belief that oyster cards never fail. I had one card that worked
flawlessly, however since moving from a pass to pre-pay I chose to work
down the balances of other cards I have for visitors, so I ended up on
the third, this was notoriously unreliable. On Sunday I had had enough
and asked for an exchange, it was explained to me that I was not using
it properly, it was explained back that the I was well aware how to use
them and this one specifically did not work. Again I was told I was not
listening - this went on for a bit the queue got larger LU employee did
not care and refused to exchange. So I had to change tack, "I would like
to return this card and get my deposit back" - apparently there was a 50
deficit, okay I'll take 2.50, I can even give you 50p and you can return
me £3 - cue two LU staff not having a clue - me getting bored ask can
the see the £3 deposit, they could, in which case give me £2.50, take
the card and sort out the paperwork when the queue has died - only until
I suggested that they were clearly taking the mick, there was no reason
they could not do what I suggested that no doing so was hardly "customer
service" including the rest of the queue did they do so.

Point of story - Arrrrrrrrgh back to LU, a simple request met with
jobsworth ****e and lack of willingness to be helpful is LU all over.
Did I mention the rammed train of sardines being held "To regulate the
service", to the drivers credit, he did say he had radioed the line
controller to point out the ridiculousness, at which point we did move
only to be held a station later to regulate the service. So line
controller have no memory or are just crap.

Stop whinging about the media, sort out your own shop - the attitude
that it is not your job but someone elses is rife in LU - pass the buck
and screw the passenger.

LU is a disgrace, northern line still ****e now because of a problem at
5pm FFS.

Tell me something good about LU this week - or STFU about how you are
reported.