Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards
(obviously you need to do it if you are using the lift to King William
Street).

PaulO

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On 26 Nov 2006 14:35:53 -0800, "Paul Oter"
wrote:


James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Interesting. I can't think of any reason why that would be (there is
at least one other DLRLU interchange without intervening gatelines)
- unless the thought is that there are possible 2 hour journeys from
Beckton/Lewisham.

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards

I would say not, as that is not "interchanging with the DLR".

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

James Farrar wrote in
:

On 26 Nov 2006 14:35:53 -0800, "Paul Oter"
wrote:


James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank
and then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers
at Bank as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one
journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Interesting. I can't think of any reason why that would be (there is
at least one other DLRLU interchange without intervening gatelines)
- unless the thought is that there are possible 2 hour journeys from
Beckton/Lewisham.

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards

I would say not, as that is not "interchanging with the DLR".



As I said once, I got ********ed by a DLR ticket inspector for not
touching in at the start of my journey when I was travelling from Old
Street to Beckton via Bank. I had used the gates at Old Street but
hadn't touched the reader at Bank. His handheld device had no reference
to me using the gates on the underground, just that I hadn't validated
the DLR part.

The thing is, it wasn't even PAYG, it was an annual season ticket!! I
have subsequently found out on UTL that the inspector was in the wrong
to have quizzed me and I should have taken his details and complained.

But at the time, it was most disconcerting.

According to the "new rules", PAYG by not touching the reader on Bank
platforms would, I guess, be charged £8 (a £4 non-ending tube journey,
and a £4 non-starting DLR journey).

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:34:10 -0600, Tristán White wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank
and then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers
at Bank as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one
journey?

As I said once, I got ********ed by a DLR ticket inspector for not
touching in at the start of my journey when I was travelling from Old
Street to Beckton via Bank. I had used the gates at Old Street but
hadn't touched the reader at Bank. His handheld device had no reference
to me using the gates on the underground, just that I hadn't validated
the DLR part.

The thing is, it wasn't even PAYG, it was an annual season ticket!!

If his machine couldn't see the season ticket, I reckon the cause was
an error reading the card rather than anything to do with the Bank
validator.

According to the "new rules", PAYG by not touching the reader on Bank
platforms would, I guess, be charged £8 (a £4 non-ending tube journey,
and a £4 non-starting DLR journey).

That seems unlikely to me - the readers would have no way of knowing
whether you changed between Tube and DLR at Bank, or at another
interchange where no touching is required (e.g. Stratford).

Empirical evidence accumulated prior to the introduction of the £4
charge suggested it's absolutely fine to ignore the validator at Bank
(and there have been stories of actually being overcharged for
touching it, though that issue has most likely been resolved by now).

The situation may have changed since, but personally I suspect all it
is is a case of crossed wires somewhere between the Oyster system
designers and the FAQ authors.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards
(obviously you need to do it if you are using the lift to King William
Street).

I've never done this, I just touch the reader at my end destination,
and have always been charged correctly. Is this only necessary since
the £4 charge was implimented? Surely touching on the reader will end
your current journey, and when you touch out at the DLR station you get
Off at, it will start a new journey?

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Oter wrote:
If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards
(obviously you need to do it if you are using the lift to King William
Street).

If the question is really "did the passenger go through zone 1" then
the same could be the case for other journeys where the user may have
gone on Silverlink:

1. Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (DLR): Passenger may have
changed at Stratford or may have gone down to Moorgate on
FirstCapitalConnect then Northern Line to bank then DLR (from
experience this is the quicker route).

2. West Brompton to Stratford (not Jubilee). Could go via Silverlink
all the way changing at Willesden Junction or could take District Line
changing at Mile End.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Earl Purple wrote:

Paul Oter wrote:

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."

Which suggests that you *do* need to touch out at the DLR concourse,
though it isn't clear whether you still need to do it if you intend to
exit Bank station though the ticket gates immediately afterwards
(obviously you need to do it if you are using the lift to King William
Street).


If the question is really "did the passenger go through zone 1" then
the same could be the case for other journeys where the user may have
gone on Silverlink:

1. Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (DLR): Passenger may have
changed at Stratford or may have gone down to Moorgate on
FirstCapitalConnect then Northern Line to bank then DLR (from
experience this is the quicker route).

2. West Brompton to Stratford (not Jubilee). Could go via Silverlink
all the way changing at Willesden Junction or could take District Line
changing at Mile End.

Oyster PAYG is not valid on the Silverlink routes in your examples even
though it is "technically" possible to touch-in/out correctly on the
journeys.

But I have noticed another interesting thing about the via-or-not-via
zone 1 question. If I travel from Tottenham Hale to Canada Water by
tube, it charges zone 3-1. Okay. But if I continue to Canary Wharf I
will pay less because it then charges a zone 3-2 only. Then one wonder
how it would be possible to touch in on the tube network at T. Hale and
out at Canary Wharf without going through zone 1...

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:16:59 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

But I have noticed another interesting thing about the via-or-not-via
zone 1 question. If I travel from Tottenham Hale to Canada Water by
tube, it charges zone 3-1. Okay. But if I continue to Canary Wharf I
will pay less because it then charges a zone 3-2 only. Then one wonder
how it would be possible to touch in on the tube network at T. Hale and
out at Canary Wharf without going through zone 1...

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example? You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

I've not investigated the north side of Stratford Station - are there
validators on or near the "one" platforms for trains to Tottenham Hale
(and north thereof)?

If so, a very interesting set of logic at work there.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.


I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.

You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.

DLR validators can not possibly require a DLR touch-in in all cases for
a DLR touch-out to work correctly, can they? But if so, that would
explain this. But then again there must be some exceptions because it is
still not the same logic as used at Bank for instance because it is
possible to touche-in a tube journey, change to DLR at Bank without
validating and then touch-out at Canary Wharf.

For some reason I have never done the opposit, DLR to 'one' at
Stratford. It would be interesting to see what the 'one' validator says
at Stratford if I touch-in on DLR at Canary Wharf and not touch-out on
the DLR validator at Stratford but then touch the 'one' validator there.

I've not investigated the north side of Stratford Station - are there
validators on or near the "one" platforms for trains to Tottenham Hale
(and north thereof)?

Yes, but they only seem to exit the 'one' journey, not start/continue a
DLR journey.

If so, a very interesting set of logic at work there.

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now). On other NR-DLR interchange stations PAYG is not valid on NR.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:06:01 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.

You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly

UIVMM this is not how the PAYG system works. It's all one PAYG journey
and there is no concept of it being divided into separate 'one' and
DLR journeys.

and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.

Regarding the latter case, perhaps the 'one' validator is set to
"entry or exit" rather than "entry, exit, or interchange" (I don't
know the official terms so I've made these ones up).

But I'm at a loss to explain why it happens when you don't touch at
Stratford at all.

Even the official TfL instructions state that you don't need to touch
a validator when interchanging, except at Bank:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

When you say the DLR validator at Canary Wharf registers an entry, is
that according to your journey history, or just the LCD display by the
validator? Perhaps (I haven't checked) when the decision of a
validator's logic is "exit or interchange", it displays "enter" even
though you could actually be exiting.

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now).

Canning Town, Limehouse

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

asdf wrote:

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:06:01 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist wrote:


Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR

from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have

found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example?

Yes.


You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

Yes, but there is always a question about what is a correct "in" a
Stratford in this case. When I touch the DLR validator it seems to exit
the 'one' journey and enter a DLR journey correctly


UIVMM this is not how the PAYG system works. It's all one PAYG journey
and there is no concept of it being divided into separate 'one' and
DLR journeys.

That is correct, I just meant that the interchange is registered
correctly when I touch the DLR validator but not the 'one' validator.

and it works
correctly as an exit later at Canary Wharf. But if I do not validate at
all at Stratford, or only on the 'one' validator, it does not register
an exit but instead an entry at Wharf.


Regarding the latter case, perhaps the 'one' validator is set to
"entry or exit" rather than "entry, exit, or interchange" (I don't
know the official terms so I've made these ones up).

But I'm at a loss to explain why it happens when you don't touch at
Stratford at all.

Even the official TfL instructions state that you don't need to touch
a validator when interchanging, except at Bank:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

Yes, but I have found out that when I have changed without touching at
Bank it has still worked correctly so I don't know why they have an
exception like that for Bank.

When you say the DLR validator at Canary Wharf registers an entry, is
that according to your journey history, or just the LCD display by the
validator?

It displays 'Entry' on the LCD display at Canary Wharf in that case (I
didn't check the journey history). When I touch the validators at
Stratford it says 'Exit' on either the 'one' or DLR validator and they
both adjust the charge to one single T. Hale - Stratford journey. If I
validate on both of them the 'one' validator says 'Exit', adjusts the
charge and the DLR validator says 'Entry' with a lower entry charge. But
it is then only adding the DLR part of my journey when I touch out at
Canary Wharf if I have touched the DLR validator at Stratford otherwise
it believes I am entering the system there, even if I do not validate at
all at Stratford (this seems to lead to two unresolved journeys).

Perhaps (I haven't checked) when the decision of a
validator's logic is "exit or interchange", it displays "enter" even
though you could actually be exiting.

That might be true when touching an enter-or-interchange-only validator
when interchanging, I have not checked that, but it is not the case if
the validator is also used for exiting because then it exits the journey
and adjusts to the fare to pay so far of the journey (because it has no
way of knowing that you intend to continue the journey in that case, it
just deducts a lower entry charge if the journey is continued by
touching in again right after the touch-out).

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to compare
to anything else because there are no more places where it is possible
to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can think of
now).


Canning Town, Limehouse

Yes of course you are right. Would be interesting to check how it works
there. I am not very familiar with those stations, I have only changed
between DLR trains at Canning Town, but are there different validators
for NR and DLR platforms there too?

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:16:59 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

But I have noticed another interesting thing about the via-or-not-via
zone 1 question. If I travel from Tottenham Hale to Canada Water by
tube, it charges zone 3-1. Okay. But if I continue to Canary Wharf I
will pay less because it then charges a zone 3-2 only. Then one wonder
how it would be possible to touch in on the tube network at T. Hale and
out at Canary Wharf without going through zone 1...

Okay, I can (and most times do) take the 'one' to Stratford and then DLR
from there, PAYG is valid on that route too, but in that case I have
found out that I have to validate at Stratford too because otherwise the
DLR validator at CW tell me it is an entry when I exit there so I don't
think that is the possible not-via-zone-1 route they are thinking about
here.

I assume you validate "in" at Tottenham Hale in your example? You then
validate "in" again at Stratford for DLR and then "out" at Canary Wharf?

I've not investigated the north side of Stratford Station - are there
validators on or near the "one" platforms for trains to Tottenham Hale
(and north thereof)?

If so, a very interesting set of logic at work there.

My current understanding is that there is a fixed fare for every
origin-destination pair, based on the most likely route used - and that
"revalidations" make no difference to this. For example, I believe that
for Hammersmith (District) to Harrow-on-the-Hill would be charged as a
non-Z1 journey, even if you went via Marylebone (exiting the LU gates
and entering the Chiltern gates).

The Single Fare Finder is a public front-end to this fixed-fare database.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/fare-finder/

The fares seem to make assumptions in the favour of the passenger where
the choice between Z1 and non-Z1 routes is ambiguous. For example,
Hammersmith (D) to Dollis Hill is a non-Z1 fare, despite being faster
and involving less changes via Green Park than via Rayners Lane.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Oter wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."


However this is contradicted by a letter in last night's
thelondonpaper:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Sat...D1154364219971

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

"Shashi Verma,
Transport for london"

PaulO

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On 2 Dec 2006 01:06:08 -0800, "Paul Oter"
wrote:

Paul Oter wrote:
James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Nov 2006 14:02:25 -0800, wrote:

When going from Island Garden to Liverpool Street I use DLR to Bank and
then the Central Line. Do I need to touch out on the readers at Bank
as I am going from DLR to LU or is this considered one journey?

That is one continuous journey.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9 says:

"How do I use Oyster Pre Pay at Bank station?

If you interchange with the DLR at Bank you need to touch your Oyster
card flat on the yellow reader again on the DLR concourse. If you do
not touch in and out at Bank's DLR concourse you may be charged more
than you need. This is not necessary at other interchange stations."


However this is contradicted by a letter in last night's
thelondonpaper:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Sat...D1154364219971

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread). I bet the signage at Bank
doesn't explain that though.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:34:36 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread).

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

asdf wrote in
:

Yes, I don't really get how it works. But it is clearly different from
the logic at Bank for example. But Stratford is not possible to
compare to anything else because there are no more places where it is
possible to change from NR PAYG to DLR PAYG (at least not any I can
think of now).

Canning Town, Limehouse


Only for another week :0(

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Olof Lagerkvist wrote in
:


Yes of course you are right. Would be interesting to check how it
works there. I am not very familiar with those stations, I have only
changed between DLR trains at Canning Town, but are there different
validators for NR and DLR platforms there too?



Tower Hill Gateway and Fenchurch Street is another one.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

asdf wrote:

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

This is possibly a way to ensure that bi-directional validators have a
reasonable way of knowing if it is an entry or exit at the station at
the end of the DLR journey.

Consider these two examples given you have a Z12 travelcard and some
PAYG value on the card.

First example, you intend to go from King's Cross to Canning Town. You
touch in at the tube gates at King's Cross, take the Northern Line,
change to DLR at Bank (without validating there) and get off at Canning
Town and touch out there. Your card has a touch-in record from KX and
you are now validating at Canning Town, it should then exit your journey
and charge a single Z3 journey from your PAYG balance.

Second example, you intend to go from King's Cross to Canary Wharf, meet
someone there and then take a DLR train from Canning Town to City
Airport. You touch in at tube gates at King's Cross, take the Northern
Line, change to DLR at Bank (without validating there) and get off at
Canary Wharf. Because you are within the zones of your travelcard you do
not touch the validator, because you do not have to. You meet a friend
there and the friend then drives you in his car to Canning Town where
you intend to take a DLR train to City Airport. Now, when you validate
at Canning Town it should be an entry but all your card has is a
touch-in from King's Cross. Should it consider this an entry or exit
then? If it would automatically consider this an exit you will get an
unresolved journey when you validate at LCY later.

Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to the
passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to validate
there.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:45:14 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:34:36 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread).

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

OK fair enough. I think the official answer is somewhat daft if you have
a travelcard that is valid in Zones 12. As the card is valid there
anyway the addition of an entry transaction can't serve any real
purpose.

As you say for PAYG only it clear does serve a purpose as it highlights
travel via zone 1 rather than via a non Z1 route. Here fares quite
clearly differ so there is a reason to ensure validation.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

There is something nagging away in the back of my mind about this. I
take your point but there must be something odd about fare arrangements
somewhere which means there is a reason for this being required for some
travelcard holders who are extending via PAYG. The only thing I can
think of is the fact that Bank is an OSI and the arrangements for the
Waterloo and City line gating might create an odd situation requiring an
additional "in" validation for DLR journeys. It needs more thought.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to the
passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to validate
there.

We've established, haven't we, that fares between two points are
defined, so Oyster should use that to determine the appropriate fare.
We have these special rules for Bank and Wimbledon (and others - these
are the two that I'm familiar with). Surely it would be easier all
round to remove the special rules that apply at these stations?

If the Bank validator is needed for people using the lift from the
surface, move the validator to the lift's upper entrance. At Wimbledon,
why have validators on the tram or District platforms? (There are
already barriers at both entrances to the station.) You even have to
remember which validators *not* to touch!

Simple rules are easier to follow and are more likely to be followed
aren't they? For me, these sort of things take the edge off this
fantastic system that we have.

Richard.

Wimbledon nonsense:
http://transportforlondon.custhelp.c...ted=1092149936
Bank nonsense:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Richard wrote:

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to
the passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to
validate there.


We've established, haven't we, that fares between two points are
defined, so Oyster should use that to determine the appropriate fare. We
have these special rules for Bank and Wimbledon (and others - these are
the two that I'm familiar with). Surely it would be easier all round to
remove the special rules that apply at these stations?

Certainly. I think the DLR validators should be changed, either so that
they only require touch-in and not touch-out (follow the same rules as
Tramlink), or that all DLR validators should be duplicated to entry-only
and exit-only validators. If they did one of this, allmost all confusion
at Bank, Stratford etc would be eliminated.

If the Bank validator is needed for people using the lift from the
surface, move the validator to the lift's upper entrance. At Wimbledon,
why have validators on the tram or District platforms? (There are
already barriers at both entrances to the station.) You even have to
remember which validators *not* to touch!

Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:43 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.

Because there is no need to validate on exit from the tram - it's all
done before you board just like a bus. Therefore the card is ready for
the next journey. If you only validated on exit from LU you would be
charged £4 on PAYG as there would be no entry transaction at Wimbledon.
AFAIA there is no through fare from Tramlink to and from LU. Therefore
interchanging passengers must validate in or out from LU and validate
"in" at the Tramlink platform at Wimbledon prior to commencing a
Tramlink trip from there. In this location it is all entirely logical
once you realise there is, in effect, a tramlink paid area inside the
SWT / LUL one.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:43 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:


Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.


Because there is no need to validate on exit from the tram - it's all
done before you board just like a bus. Therefore the card is ready for
the next journey. If you only validated on exit from LU you would be
charged £4 on PAYG as there would be no entry transaction at Wimbledon.
AFAIA there is no through fare from Tramlink to and from LU. Therefore
interchanging passengers must validate in or out from LU and validate
"in" at the Tramlink platform at Wimbledon prior to commencing a
Tramlink trip from there. In this location it is all entirely logical
once you realise there is, in effect, a tramlink paid area inside the
SWT / LUL one.

I realise all this but I still think that it should be possible for the
software to treat an exit on a tube gateline with a card with only a
Tramlink validation as one Tramlink and one tube journey.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram, validated
on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the station through the
barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited at anothr station?

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram, validated
on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the station through the
barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am more
than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set for
entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will not
be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as above
and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram,
validated on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the
station through the barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited
at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am
more than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set
for entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will
not be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as
above and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.



That's what I thought. I've never done the journey myself, but I bet
you're right.

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence. And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

Not just LUL, but all over transport for London, especially the little
****s who are so quick to dish out parking tickets.

If I had boarded a tram at Dundonald Road and failed to touch in because
the tram was leaving, I would have done the honest thing and touched in
on the platform before leaving the system. And yet I'd be charged more
than if I tried to cheat it on purpose.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:38:38 -0600, Tristán White wrote:

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

Only if you don't touch in on the District Line validators at the
start of your Tube journey.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

Ditto.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

Ditto.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

If it only charged 80p or £1 then people would be able to get away
with deliberately not touching in in order to save money.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence.

I agree with you here. They also go out of their way to make it
difficult to plead your innocence (ticket offices are instructed not
to help you, even though they're otherwise perfectly capable of doing
so).

And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

I think you're going over the top here. If you're going to go round
haphazardly touching validators you're not required to and not
touching ones you are required to, you can't expect the system to be
able to charge the correct fare.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

In fairness, a dose of common sense is (hopefully) only a phone call
away (albeit an 0845 one) at the Oyster helpdesk.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:38:38 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram,
validated on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the
station through the barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited
at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am
more than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set
for entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will
not be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as
above and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.



That's what I thought. I've never done the journey myself, but I bet
you're right.

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

No you won't. I didn't say anything about a penalty. I said validating
at Wimbledon and then trying to exit would be illogical. A quick check
of the card and a verbal explanation to whoever is on the gateline at
Wimbledon would explain matters.

You have expanded the particular example with extra details.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

Only if you fail to touch "in" on one of the validators near the
District Line platforms.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

No - see above. You should validate "in" before boarding an LU train at
Wimbledon. £4 will be deducted but on exit - providing you validate -
you will be charged the correct Oyster fare for the journey undertaken
from Wimbledon by tube.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

No it does not.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

But it will do that with respect to the tramlink journey anyway. How
can you not be charged more money if you make a trip on the tube?

You are mixing up your scenarios and adding details that partly
invalidate the initial explanation I provided.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence. And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

Sorry but the system is not an ass. This is the first stored value
application *in the world* where it has been deployed onto an urban
network without full gating and separation between all modes. Hong Kong
and Singapore have full gating and full separation of the MTR and KCRC
systems. There are no side gates, open interchanges or ungateable
stations there. The system was designed in from day one - London cannot
afford to do that. Therefore a cash based incentive is required to make
it worthwhile for people to comply with the very simple "in", "out"
validation principle.

The use of the £4 charge was only introduced after the more customer
friendly £1 or £1.50 value deduction on entry concept was found to be
abused by a proportion of users. There would be plenty of people
(rightly) screaming from the rooftops if TfL did not do something to
reduce the fraud risk.

The fact is that PAYG is a valuable additional product that is
attractive to a part of the public transport market. Coupled with the
capping concept it will provide a very easy to use product in time - I
would accept that where we are now with respect to One Day travelcards
and NR validity is very complex and confusing.

Not just LUL, but all over transport for London, especially the little
****s who are so quick to dish out parking tickets.

I can't recall TfL having parking enforcement - please slag off the
right people.

If I had boarded a tram at Dundonald Road and failed to touch in because
the tram was leaving, I would have done the honest thing and touched in
on the platform before leaving the system. And yet I'd be charged more
than if I tried to cheat it on purpose.

No - see above.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

Computers cannot apply the same thought process as a reasoning human
being can. You cannot expect a logic based system which has to read,
validate, decide, write and check data between card and gate to sit
there trying to apply reason.

While I understand your complaint the fact remains that it is highly
unlikely that Plaistow man will repeat his error in the future. I know
you won't agree because you clearly wish to keep complaining about this
aspect of the system but I can see no reason why it will be changed.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

OK I get your point.

But here's a solution that would work in the middle ground: still charge to
dissuade the fraudsters, but not as draconian as the £4 penalty.

How about, rather than being charged the £4 on top of your other daily
usage, it is cappable, ie the most you will be charged is (from 2007) £6.20
TOTAL which is the 1-6 cap rate.

That means that if someone goes from Plaistow to Mile End and forgets to
touch in or touch out they get charged £4, and any subsequent journeys
(including subsequent incomplete journeys that day) add to the amount until
a cap of £6.20

As it stands at the moment, the user will be charged £4 (or £8 if he/she
does it twice) and then on top of that could be charged £5.20 even if
he/she never goes further out than zone 3.

To make the cap £6.20 if there is one or more incomplete journeys would
keep most people happy.

Can you disagree with that?

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:20:56 -0600, Tristán White wrote:

OK I get your point.

But here's a solution that would work in the middle ground: still charge to
dissuade the fraudsters, but not as draconian as the £4 penalty.

How about, rather than being charged the £4 on top of your other daily
usage, it is cappable, ie the most you will be charged is (from 2007) £6.20
TOTAL which is the 1-6 cap rate.

That means that if someone goes from Plaistow to Mile End and forgets to
touch in or touch out they get charged £4, and any subsequent journeys
(including subsequent incomplete journeys that day) add to the amount until
a cap of £6.20

The problem with that is if you haven't reached the daily cap, and
you're starting a journey that would take you up to the cap, and the
barriers are open, you can avoid touching in, in the hope that the
barriers will also be open at the other end and you get a free
journey. Even if they turn out not to be, and you pick up a £4 charge,
you won't be paying any more than you should have paid anyway.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:20:56 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

OK I get your point.

But here's a solution that would work in the middle ground: still charge to
dissuade the fraudsters, but not as draconian as the £4 penalty.

How about, rather than being charged the £4 on top of your other daily
usage, it is cappable, ie the most you will be charged is (from 2007) £6.20
TOTAL which is the 1-6 cap rate.

That means that if someone goes from Plaistow to Mile End and forgets to
touch in or touch out they get charged £4, and any subsequent journeys
(including subsequent incomplete journeys that day) add to the amount until
a cap of £6.20

As it stands at the moment, the user will be charged £4 (or £8 if he/she
does it twice) and then on top of that could be charged £5.20 even if
he/she never goes further out than zone 3.

To make the cap £6.20 if there is one or more incomplete journeys would
keep most people happy.

Can you disagree with that?

Yes I can. There should be no perceived benefit from not validating. As
soon as there is some benefit from not complying with the rules then
some people will exploit the weakness. If you fail to validate then the
consequences of that should not be incorporated into the capping system.
The only exceptions would be where the equipment to validate cards is
not working or where there is some emergency or serious service
disruption that passengers can do nothing about. In those cases they
should be held blameless.

I know you (and many others) don't agree with my position on the £4
maximum fare so let's agree to differ.

I shall probably tempt fate by saying this but I have not noticed an
increase in people having issues with their Oyster cards or adverse
publicity since the change was implemented. Perhaps people are now
getting used to the system? ducks for cover

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

Yes I can. There should be no perceived benefit from not validating.
SNIP

Well, for people not using zones further than 5, or within 1, would
certainly be dissuaded from not validating, as their ordinary cap would be
lower than £6.20

And they'd still be charged (albeit cappable) £4 for their incomplete
journey, which would be more than most single journeys, so it would
dissuade those only wishing to do one journey.

In fact, the ONLY ones who would see no difference would be those living in
zone 6 and going to zone 1 and back.

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

asdf wrote in
:

The problem with that is if you haven't reached the daily cap, and
you're starting a journey that would take you up to the cap, and the
barriers are open, you can avoid touching in, in the hope that the
barriers will also be open at the other end and you get a free
journey.
SNIP

Doesn't happen very often though does it? That *both* are open?

Oyster PAYG Island Gardens via Bank to Liverpool Street
 

Tristán White wrote:
asdf wrote in
:

The problem with that is if you haven't reached the daily cap, and
you're starting a journey that would take you up to the cap, and the
barriers are open, you can avoid touching in, in the hope that the
barriers will also be open at the other end and you get a free
journey.
SNIP

Doesn't happen very often though does it? That *both* are open?

It might just be an open station, like Kensington Olympia, New Cross, or
any DLR station.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London