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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Peter Smyth wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

I'm not saying that the GN stations are inconveniently located for
*everyone* - obviously some destinations will be closer to the GN
stations than the Piccadilly ones, and some bus connections will be
more easily made at GN stations. On balance, however, major
destinations and bus connections are easier at Picc stations simply
because the Picc follows the main road.

I have to say, some of the GN stations really are in odd places.
Oakleigh Park in particular - it's in the middle of nowhere! Why wasn't
it built it a mile or so further south, where it would at least have
been close to some vaguely major roads? Winchmore Hill and Grane Park
are also pretty badly sited, but when with the railway having the route
it does, there aren't really any better alternatives.

I don't think there is really any alternative site for Oakleigh Park. To
the south the line goes into a tunnel, and a site after the tunnel would
be too close to New Southgate.

Hmm. Hadn't noticed the tunnel. In the light of that, the location does
make quite a bit of sense, as a least worst option.

Anyway it is pretty well used where it is, it has twice as many
passengers as New Southgate for a start.

Interesting. New Southgate suffers from being right next door to Arnos
Grove tube; i would have thought Oakleigh Park would suffer similarly from
its proximity to Totteridge and Whetstone, but apparently not.

tom

--
eggflip, brandy, bits of Tia Maria, Beecham's powder, aspirin,
Benedictine, Alka-Seltzer, black currant juice, a touch of mustard and
"other things"

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Dave Arquati wrote:
I'm not saying that the GN stations are inconveniently located for
*everyone* - obviously some destinations will be closer to the GN
stations than the Piccadilly ones, and some bus connections will be more
easily made at GN stations. On balance, however, major destinations and
bus connections are easier at Picc stations simply because the Picc
follows the main road.

It follows the A105 for 3 consecutive stops. Apart from that it doesn't
follow any main road,
although many of the stations are on main roads. Of the GN stations the
following are on
classified roads:

Moorgate (A501). Old Street (A501/A5201), Essex Road (A1200/A104),
Highbury & Islington (A1 plus close to A1200, A1199). Finsbury Park
(A503/A1201)
Hornsey (A103), Harringay (B138), Alexandra Palace(B151, close enough),

Palmers Green (A1004/A105 close enough), New Southgate (A109). The only
ones
that are not during this phase are Drayton Park and Bowes Park, and the
latter of
those is only about 1-2 minutes' walk from the A109. Drayton Park
serves Arsenal FC
fairly well.

I imagine GN stations will also be more convenient if you are starting
near another GN station, but the Picc has a much better catchment area
(particularly because it serves central London directly).

So does GN if your destination happens to be Moorgate, i.e. the City.
And if your
destination is on the Victoria Line (mine is when I use Oxford Circus
on a Monday),
then you have a convenient change at Highbury & Islington,
cross-platform, although
it's true you can stay on until Finsbury Park and have a cross-platform
link there too
to the Piccadilly Line.

I also think it happens to be nicer travelling over-ground. On the GN
you are above the
ground from Drayton Park onward, whilst on the Piccadilly Line you have
to wait until
just after Bounds Green.

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On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:39:32 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Peter Smyth wrote:

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

I have to say, some of the GN stations really are in odd places.
Oakleigh Park in particular - it's in the middle of nowhere! Why wasn't
it built it a mile or so further south, where it would at least have
been close to some vaguely major roads? Winchmore Hill and Grane Park
are also pretty badly sited, but when with the railway having the route
it does, there aren't really any better alternatives.

I don't think there is really any alternative site for Oakleigh Park. To
the south the line goes into a tunnel, and a site after the tunnel would
be too close to New Southgate.

Hmm. Hadn't noticed the tunnel. In the light of that, the location does
make quite a bit of sense, as a least worst option.

Anyway it is pretty well used where it is, it has twice as many
passengers as New Southgate for a start.

Interesting. New Southgate suffers from being right next door to Arnos
Grove tube; i would have thought Oakleigh Park would suffer similarly from
its proximity to Totteridge and Whetstone, but apparently not.

tom

No: there's a hill in between, and there's about a fifteen minute walk
between the two.

Oakleigh Park could have been sited a little to the North, so as to
have access to Longmore Avenue, which is crossed by a fairly tall
bridge. However, I like it where it is; it's seven minutes walk from
chez Clive!

Regards.
--
Clive R Robertson -- AS/400 Programmer.

Webmaster of http://www.osterleypark.org.uk/ -- this describes
a beautiful National Trust property in West London.

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Earl Purple wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
I'm not saying that the GN stations are inconveniently located for
*everyone* - obviously some destinations will be closer to the GN
stations than the Piccadilly ones, and some bus connections will be more
easily made at GN stations. On balance, however, major destinations and
bus connections are easier at Picc stations simply because the Picc
follows the main road.

It follows the A105 for 3 consecutive stops. Apart from that it doesn't
follow any main road,
although many of the stations are on main roads. Of the GN stations the
following are on
classified roads:

Moorgate (A501). Old Street (A501/A5201), Essex Road (A1200/A104),
Highbury & Islington (A1 plus close to A1200, A1199). Finsbury Park
(A503/A1201)
Hornsey (A103), Harringay (B138), Alexandra Palace(B151, close enough),

Palmers Green (A1004/A105 close enough), New Southgate (A109). The only
ones
that are not during this phase are Drayton Park and Bowes Park, and the
latter of
those is only about 1-2 minutes' walk from the A109. Drayton Park
serves Arsenal FC
fairly well.

I make it four stations along the same road - Manor House, Turnpike
Lane, Wood Green and Bounds Green.

I take your point that many GN stations are also on "main roads", but
many are awkwardly located compared to their counterparts. Drayton Park
may be closest to the new Arsenal stadium, but Holloway Road is in a
much better position to serve local shops and particularly bus routes.
Turnpike Lane is similarly positioned at the junction of four main roads
and their associated bus routes, and is at the foot of the Wood Green
shopping area, the main trip generator in the area - unlike Hornsey,
which is slightly awkwardly positioned (thus making it harder to find)
some 10 mins away. The same goes for Wood Green and Alexandra Palace.
Bowes Park may be very close to Bounds Green, but it is stuck down small
residential side streets, whereas Bounds Green is located conveniently
at the crossroads with easy bus interchange. Arnos Grove is positioned
in a local shopping area, whilst New Southgate fronts onto a busy car
route with few facilities.

The stations further north do serve somewhat different catchment areas
to the Tube (e.g. Palmers Green and Winchmore Hill are fairly alone),
but are still not very visible in comparison to the average Tube station
- e.g. Oakleigh Park is buried in a somewhat expansive residential
estate, whilst Totteridge and Whetstone is close to the shops on the
main road.

My point is that even if the GN stations had the same frequency as their
Tube counterparts, i.e. every 2-3 mins - which would be horrendously
expensive to achieve - they would still not compete effectively with the
well-located Picc stations. Therefore a ten-minute headway would fare
even worse.

Comparing the usage figures for some GN and Picc stations shows that in
most cases, even if GN usage *tripled*, with a doubling in frequency to
a ten-minute headway, the usage of the Picc stations would still dwarf
that of the GN stations.

Comparing the usage figures also

Drayton Pk: 0.13mppa
Holloway Rd: 6.3mppa (~48x more pax)

Finsbury Park NR: 5.0mppa
Finsbury Park LU: 23.4mppa (~5x more pax)

Harringay: 0.33mppa
Manor House: 6.9mppa (~21x more pax)

Alexandra P: 0.61mppa
Wood Green: 8.7mppa (~14x more pax)

Hornsey: 0.36mppa
Turnpike L: 7.39mppa (~21x more pax)

N Southgate: 0.29mppa
Arnos Grove: 3.4mppa (~12x more pax)

Bowes Park: 0.17mppa
Bounds Grn: 4.6mppa (~27x more pax)

I imagine GN stations will also be more convenient if you are starting
near another GN station, but the Picc has a much better catchment area
(particularly because it serves central London directly).

So does GN if your destination happens to be Moorgate, i.e. the City.
And if your
destination is on the Victoria Line (mine is when I use Oxford Circus
on a Monday),
then you have a convenient change at Highbury & Islington,
cross-platform, although
it's true you can stay on until Finsbury Park and have a cross-platform
link there too
to the Piccadilly Line.

I accept that Moorgate is a convenient destination for City workers.
However, the Picc serves many West End locations directly, providing a
link to a market which is busy throughout the day.

I also think it happens to be nicer travelling over-ground. On the GN
you are above the
ground from Drayton Park onward, whilst on the Piccadilly Line you have
to wait until
just after Bounds Green.

I prefer travelling overground too, but given a choice between a 2-3 min
interval service in a convenient location or a 20 (or even 10 min)
interval service in a less convenient location, I'll make the small
sacrifice and go Underground...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

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On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Earl Purple wrote:

The only ones that are not during this phase are Drayton Park and Bowes
Park, and the latter of those is only about 1-2 minutes' walk from the
A109.

Drayton Park is a minute's walk from Holloway Road too.

Drayton Park serves Arsenal FC fairly well.

Although it's being closed on match days isn't terribly helpful.

tom

--
Once you notice that something doesn't seem to have all the necessary
parts to enable its functions, it is going to mildly bug you until you
figure it out. -- John Rowland

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In message , Tom
Anderson writes
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Earl Purple wrote:

The only ones that are not during this phase are Drayton Park and
Bowes Park, and the latter of those is only about 1-2 minutes' walk
from the A109.

Drayton Park is a minute's walk from Holloway Road too.

Drayton Park serves Arsenal FC fairly well.

Although it's being closed on match days isn't terribly helpful.


Ahh good old British organisation, kind of makes you proud :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

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Dave Arquati wrote:
I make it four stations along the same road - Manor House, Turnpike
Lane, Wood Green and Bounds Green.

Bounds Green is not on the A105. It is on the cross-roads of the A109
and the B106.

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

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On 16 Dec 2006 17:51:25 -0800, Earl Purple wrote:

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as eastbound/westbound
between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and northbound/southbound
between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

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Earl Purple wrote:

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound",

Unless they've changed them recently, all of the Cockfosters-bound platforms
from Holborn to Oakwood are marked "Northbound".

the East-most station is Manor House after which your journey heads back
towards to the West
(as well as North).

.... although Southgate is east of both of its neighbours.

The thing that's always surprised me is the way the Metropolitan Line
pretends to be a north-south line, at least between Baker Street and the
sticks.

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asdf wrote:

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as eastbound/westbound
between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and northbound/southbound
between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

IIRC it's N/S from Cockfosters to Russell Square, E/W from Covent Garden to
Heathrow/Uxbridge, and N/W at Holborn (perhaps the platforms for Aldwych
were called Southbound platforms).