Earl Purple wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
I'm not saying that the GN stations are inconveniently located for
*everyone* - obviously some destinations will be closer to the GN
stations than the Piccadilly ones, and some bus connections will be more
easily made at GN stations. On balance, however, major destinations and
bus connections are easier at Picc stations simply because the Picc
follows the main road.

It follows the A105 for 3 consecutive stops. Apart from that it doesn't
follow any main road,
although many of the stations are on main roads. Of the GN stations the
following are on
classified roads:

Moorgate (A501). Old Street (A501/A5201), Essex Road (A1200/A104),
Highbury & Islington (A1 plus close to A1200, A1199). Finsbury Park
(A503/A1201)
Hornsey (A103), Harringay (B138), Alexandra Palace(B151, close enough),

Palmers Green (A1004/A105 close enough), New Southgate (A109). The only
ones
that are not during this phase are Drayton Park and Bowes Park, and the
latter of
those is only about 1-2 minutes' walk from the A109. Drayton Park
serves Arsenal FC
fairly well.

I make it four stations along the same road - Manor House, Turnpike
Lane, Wood Green and Bounds Green.

I take your point that many GN stations are also on "main roads", but
many are awkwardly located compared to their counterparts. Drayton Park
may be closest to the new Arsenal stadium, but Holloway Road is in a
much better position to serve local shops and particularly bus routes.
Turnpike Lane is similarly positioned at the junction of four main roads
and their associated bus routes, and is at the foot of the Wood Green
shopping area, the main trip generator in the area - unlike Hornsey,
which is slightly awkwardly positioned (thus making it harder to find)
some 10 mins away. The same goes for Wood Green and Alexandra Palace.
Bowes Park may be very close to Bounds Green, but it is stuck down small
residential side streets, whereas Bounds Green is located conveniently
at the crossroads with easy bus interchange. Arnos Grove is positioned
in a local shopping area, whilst New Southgate fronts onto a busy car
route with few facilities.

The stations further north do serve somewhat different catchment areas
to the Tube (e.g. Palmers Green and Winchmore Hill are fairly alone),
but are still not very visible in comparison to the average Tube station
- e.g. Oakleigh Park is buried in a somewhat expansive residential
estate, whilst Totteridge and Whetstone is close to the shops on the
main road.

My point is that even if the GN stations had the same frequency as their
Tube counterparts, i.e. every 2-3 mins - which would be horrendously
expensive to achieve - they would still not compete effectively with the
well-located Picc stations. Therefore a ten-minute headway would fare
even worse.

Comparing the usage figures for some GN and Picc stations shows that in
most cases, even if GN usage *tripled*, with a doubling in frequency to
a ten-minute headway, the usage of the Picc stations would still dwarf
that of the GN stations.

Comparing the usage figures also

Drayton Pk: 0.13mppa
Holloway Rd: 6.3mppa (~48x more pax)

Finsbury Park NR: 5.0mppa
Finsbury Park LU: 23.4mppa (~5x more pax)

Harringay: 0.33mppa
Manor House: 6.9mppa (~21x more pax)

Alexandra P: 0.61mppa
Wood Green: 8.7mppa (~14x more pax)

Hornsey: 0.36mppa
Turnpike L: 7.39mppa (~21x more pax)

N Southgate: 0.29mppa
Arnos Grove: 3.4mppa (~12x more pax)

Bowes Park: 0.17mppa
Bounds Grn: 4.6mppa (~27x more pax)

I imagine GN stations will also be more convenient if you are starting
near another GN station, but the Picc has a much better catchment area
(particularly because it serves central London directly).

So does GN if your destination happens to be Moorgate, i.e. the City.
And if your
destination is on the Victoria Line (mine is when I use Oxford Circus
on a Monday),
then you have a convenient change at Highbury & Islington,
cross-platform, although
it's true you can stay on until Finsbury Park and have a cross-platform
link there too
to the Piccadilly Line.

I accept that Moorgate is a convenient destination for City workers.
However, the Picc serves many West End locations directly, providing a
link to a market which is busy throughout the day.

I also think it happens to be nicer travelling over-ground. On the GN
you are above the
ground from Drayton Park onward, whilst on the Piccadilly Line you have
to wait until
just after Bounds Green.

I prefer travelling overground too, but given a choice between a 2-3 min
interval service in a convenient location or a 20 (or even 10 min)
interval service in a less convenient location, I'll make the small
sacrifice and go Underground...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
I make it four stations along the same road - Manor House, Turnpike
Lane, Wood Green and Bounds Green.

Bounds Green is not on the A105. It is on the cross-roads of the A109
and the B106.

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

On 16 Dec 2006 17:51:25 -0800, Earl Purple wrote:

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as eastbound/westbound
between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and northbound/southbound
between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

asdf wrote:

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as eastbound/westbound
between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and northbound/southbound
between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

IIRC it's N/S from Cockfosters to Russell Square, E/W from Covent Garden to
Heathrow/Uxbridge, and N/W at Holborn (perhaps the platforms for Aldwych
were called Southbound platforms).

In article , (John Rowland) wrote:

asdf wrote:

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as
eastbound/westbound between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and
northbound/southbound between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

IIRC it's N/S from Cockfosters to Russell Square, E/W from Covent
Garden to Heathrow/Uxbridge, and N/W at Holborn (perhaps the
platforms for Aldwych were called Southbound platforms).

Never called anything other than Aldwych as I recall.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , asdf
writes
On 16 Dec 2006 17:51:25 -0800, Earl Purple wrote:

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

IIRC the directions on the Picc are referred to as eastbound/westbound
between Heathrow/Uxbridge and Covent Garden, and northbound/southbound
between Covent Garden and Cockfosters.

Nope, we refer to the whole line as East West. What the
punt^Mcustomers are told on the platforms may be a different kettle of
fish.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Earl Purple wrote:

You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound",

Unless they've changed them recently, all of the Cockfosters-bound platforms
from Holborn to Oakwood are marked "Northbound".

the East-most station is Manor House after which your journey heads back
towards to the West
(as well as North).

.... although Southgate is east of both of its neighbours.

The thing that's always surprised me is the way the Metropolitan Line
pretends to be a north-south line, at least between Baker Street and the
sticks.

In article om, Earl
Purple writes
You'll probably find, if you look at a map, that although the journey
towards Cockfosters is called "Eastbound", the East-most station is
Manor House after which your journey heads back towards to the West (as
well as North).

Manor House is indeed the easternmost station; Cockfosters is slightly
west of Hyde Park Corner. Here are the positions of the stations between
the two; the first three digits are the easting co-ordinate, in 100m
units.

281963 Cockfosters
293959 Oakwood
296942 Southgate
293925 Arnos Grove
300915 Bounds Green
310904 Wood Green
315896 Turnpike Lane
320874 Manor House
313867 Finsbury Park
314861 Arsenal
309854 Holloway Road
305849 Caledonian Road
302829 King's Cross St. Pancras
301821 Russell Square
305815 Holborn
302810 Covent Garden
299808 Leicester Square
296806 Piccadilly Circus
289802 Green Park
282798 Hyde Park Corner
278796 Knightsbridge

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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