Transport for London seem intent on making every other vehicle on our
roads a half empty bendy bus. I believe it being on fire is optional :-)

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

It's about time the congestion charge bought us something better than
bus congestion !

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 21:16:51 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

Transport for London seem intent on making every other vehicle on our
roads a half empty bendy bus. I believe it being on fire is optional :-)

Something of an exaggeration I feel.

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

It's about time the congestion charge bought us something better than
bus congestion !

I think the issue will lie somewhere between DfT and Network Rail. DfT
is more interested in screwing huge premiums out of franchise holders
than it is in getting more trains running or funding an expansion in
infrastructure. The lines out of Kings Cross and Moorgate are pretty
much full in the peaks due to the need to mesh fast, semi fast and local
trains on the tracks alongside GNER, Hull Trains and soon Grand Central.
Network Rail have no direct incentive to independently invest in
increasing capacity if the government will not fund the necessary access
charges for more trains via franchisees. I don't believe there is a
route utilisation study yet in place for the East Coast Main line either
so they haven't got a strategy available to do anything sensible.

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
so they haven't got a strategy available to do anything sensible.

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?


I suppose being the average commuter I just see it a fairly simple
thing. I wait on a platform for ten minutes in the cold and know there
won't be another train for fifteen minutes if I miss it.

So there are large gaps in the service and lots of people either crammed
onto trains or seeking alternative routes.

Solution: run more trains !!

To be honest if I lived south of Palmers Green I wouldn't even attempt
to use the service because the trains are so crushed when they arrive at
Hornsey or Harringay.

I'm sure I remember Ken promising better transport if we had the
congestion charge, and I've yet to see any improvements.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

So there are large gaps in the service and lots of people either
crammed onto trains or seeking alternative routes.

Solution: run more trains !!

I'm sure I remember Ken promising better transport if we had the
congestion charge, and I've yet to see any improvements.

There's also the question of WHERE do 'more trains' come from? In the peaks,
First Capital Connect (as WAGN before them) utilise their stock to its
maximum capacity. There is no flexibility within the existing fleet.

OK, you say "get more trains in". Where from? The Class 313, which is the
only dual-voltage train that is permitted to run through the tunnels to
Moorgate, is only used on Great Northern services and on the North London
lines by Silverlink (and their 23 trains were originally built in 1976 for
GN services but were moved during the 1980s when the recession hit and GN
services had excess capacity). Their are no other units of similar spec
available. The generic Class 314s on Glasgow suburban services are also
three-car units but AC only, whilst the Class 315s on Great Eastern services
are four-car and AC only. All of those vehicles are also required where they
currently operate. Even to utilise some of them (say the Scottish 314s, when
they are replaced in the next few years) would create diagramming problems
to keep the dual-voltage services to Moorgate separated from AC-only
services, which would either have to divert to King's Cross or terminate
short at Finsbury Park or Drayton Park. Similarly there are no additional
outer-suburban units available from anywhere. All over the system the
current resources are being squeezed to the limit and the DfT are doing
nothing about authorising new stock to cater for the increase in passengers
that is anticipated in the next few years.

Realistically, all I can suggest that might happen is that FCC could take
back the 23 Class 313s from Silverlink, to expand their fleet, in two or
three years, when the current order for new Electrostar stock for the NLL
and ELL is delivered. Then you might be able to squeeze some additional
services through but, without platform lengthening (which isn't going to
happen in the tunnelled sections), nine-car trains formed of three 313s is a
highly unlikely solution. There is also the little matter that the 313s are
thirty years old this year and will themselves be due for replacement within
the next ten years, which might make expenditure on refurbishing the
ex-Silverlink sets an unattractive option.

Jack Taylor wrote:
Their are no other units of similar spec available.

*OUCH* - sorry for the typo. 'There'.

Memo to self: read postings at least a third time before hitting 'Send'.
;-)

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Paul Corfield
writes
so they haven't got a strategy available to do anything sensible.

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?


I suppose being the average commuter I just see it a fairly simple
thing. I wait on a platform for ten minutes in the cold and know there
won't be another train for fifteen minutes if I miss it.

So there are large gaps in the service and lots of people either crammed
onto trains or seeking alternative routes.

Solution: run more trains !!

To be honest if I lived south of Palmers Green I wouldn't even attempt
to use the service because the trains are so crushed when they arrive at
Hornsey or Harringay.

I'm sure I remember Ken promising better transport if we had the
congestion charge, and I've yet to see any improvements.

South of Palmers Green you have alternative stations on the Piccadilly
Line for each station:

Bowes Park-Bounds Green about 2-3 minutes walk
Alexander Palace-Wood Green. Probably about 5 minutes
Hornsey-Turnpike Lane. About 5 minutes?
Harringay-Manor House. Probably a fair bit

At least at Palmers Green you have the semi-fast trains that return
that skip out Bowes Park, the station that gets the poorest service in
the evening rush hour (although there is the alternative of Bounds
Green).

In the morning heading South from Bowes Park the service is not bad -
trains usually every 7-8 minutes which is far better than the
Thameslink line.

There is a gap of 20 minutes though between 7:31 and 7:51 and I think
another one between 8:38 and 8:58.

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:57:22 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Transport for London seem intent on making every other vehicle on our
roads a half empty bendy bus. I believe it being on fire is optional :-)

Something of an exaggeration I feel.

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

I think the issue will lie somewhere between DfT and Network Rail. DfT
is more interested in screwing huge premiums out of franchise holders
than it is in getting more trains running or funding an expansion in
infrastructure. The lines out of Kings Cross and Moorgate are pretty
much full in the peaks due to the need to mesh fast, semi fast and local
trains on the tracks alongside GNER, Hull Trains and soon Grand Central.

But those trains don't use the Hertford Loop (the line through Palmers
Green). The section from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park might be a
bottleneck, but aren't there extra tracks there?

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?

That may be an issue at peak times, but it certainly isn't off-peak.
The off-peak service is only 3tph (weekday daytimes) or 2tph (evenings
and all weekend). This is very poor for a suburban "metro" service -
if it were run by TfL I'm sure there would be at least 6tph on each
branch (which they manage to run in the peaks, so there must be
capacity for it). The Piccadilly Line runs through similar areas, and
manages to justify something like 18tph.

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, asdf wrote:

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:57:22 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running
on the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every
morning and there are huge gaps in the service.

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?

That may be an issue at peak times, but it certainly isn't off-peak. The
off-peak service is only 3tph (weekday daytimes) or 2tph (evenings and
all weekend). This is very poor for a suburban "metro" service - if it
were run by TfL I'm sure there would be at least 6tph on each branch
(which they manage to run in the peaks, so there must be capacity for
it). The Piccadilly Line runs through similar areas, and manages to
justify something like 18tph.

I tend to think the existence of the Piccadilly is precisely the reason
the off-peak services are so poor: everyone near a GN station is near
enough a Piccadilly (or Northern) station that they don't actually need a
strong off-peak service.

I would like to see a proper off-peak service myself, though,
specifically, one that goes to Moorgate at the weekends and later at night
during the week. It's a hugely useful link from north London to the City,
which lets you avoid the detour via King's Cross you otherwise have to
make if you're going to or from anywhere vaguely eastish.

tom

--
Argumentative and pedantic, oh, yes. Although it's properly called
"correct" -- Huge

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:18:27 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:57:22 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Transport for London seem intent on making every other vehicle on our
roads a half empty bendy bus. I believe it being on fire is optional :-)

Something of an exaggeration I feel.

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

I think the issue will lie somewhere between DfT and Network Rail. DfT
is more interested in screwing huge premiums out of franchise holders
than it is in getting more trains running or funding an expansion in
infrastructure. The lines out of Kings Cross and Moorgate are pretty
much full in the peaks due to the need to mesh fast, semi fast and local
trains on the tracks alongside GNER, Hull Trains and soon Grand Central.

But those trains don't use the Hertford Loop (the line through Palmers
Green). The section from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park might be a
bottleneck, but aren't there extra tracks there?

Yes and where do they then go? Moorgate is a very tight bottleneck and
Kings Cross is pretty much at capacity AIUI. Mr Cowling is complaining
about the peak timetable IIRC.

Having been caught up in disruption off peak on the Great Northern I
think there is a deliberate decision to retain spare capacity on the
Hertford Line in case GNER and others have to be diverted. It seems to
be able to handle a fast every 5 minutes or so in such circumstances
provided all the stopping trains are kicked out of the way!

There is also freight traffic to be considered.

TfL have limited rights with respect to main line rail and can offer to
fund extra services. However if there is no capacity available to run
them it is a somewhat academic exercise surely?

That may be an issue at peak times, but it certainly isn't off-peak.
The off-peak service is only 3tph (weekday daytimes) or 2tph (evenings
and all weekend). This is very poor for a suburban "metro" service -
if it were run by TfL I'm sure there would be at least 6tph on each
branch (which they manage to run in the peaks, so there must be
capacity for it). The Piccadilly Line runs through similar areas, and
manages to justify something like 18tph.

It may be poor but I do use the Hertford line infrequently and typically
off peak. It is never more than 20% full even with 3 car trains. A lot
of people seem to leave the train between Alexandra Palace and Enfield
Chase with few others boarding.

Would TfL really run that level service parallel to a 18tph tube line? I
think you've just answered your own question.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:56:30 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

But why don't they do some similar bribery to get more trains running on
the overground ? I come in from Palmers Green to Moorgate every morning
and there are huge gaps in the service.

I think the issue will lie somewhere between DfT and Network Rail. DfT
is more interested in screwing huge premiums out of franchise holders
than it is in getting more trains running or funding an expansion in
infrastructure. The lines out of Kings Cross and Moorgate are pretty
much full in the peaks due to the need to mesh fast, semi fast and local
trains on the tracks alongside GNER, Hull Trains and soon Grand Central.

But those trains don't use the Hertford Loop (the line through Palmers
Green). The section from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park might be a
bottleneck, but aren't there extra tracks there?

Yes and where do they then go? Moorgate is a very tight bottleneck and
Kings Cross is pretty much at capacity AIUI. Mr Cowling is complaining
about the peak timetable IIRC.

I was thinking Moorgate. It currently handles 12tph in the peaks;
Brixton has the same layout and manages 30tph. But I suppose it's not
that simple.