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Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Peter Masson wrote: "4sub" wrote The only first class only we worked on the Southern was the Boat Trains Waterloo/Southampton Docks where my guards at Clapham Jct and RPI's at Cannon Street at a later date were employed in 'Cap doffing duties' In the 1960s the Southern also ran first class only trains from Waterloo to Ascot for the Royal Ascot Race Meeting - using 4CORs, with the second class seats reclqassified by the simple expedient of adding antimacassars. The Western ran a 'First Class and Members' Special' from Paddington to Newbury Racecourse, and included a couple of 'Ocean Saloons' in teh rake. Peter Around 1990 when I lived in Bristol, there was an unadvertised Bristol-Paddington relief laid on for employees of a major bank which had moved part if not all of its offices from London to Bristol. It ran about 15 minutes behind the normal HST service, called at Bath and Reading (I think) and was hauled by a BR long range 47. I'm not sure whether it was intentionally all first class, however on occasion I did notice that it was formed of all first class coaches. |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Walter Mann wrote:
You're correct that elsewhere on National Rail, unless you're using a Season Ticket, there's no penalty for asking for an upgrade in 1st Class from an ordinary walk-on Standard ticket beyond the appropriate difference in fares. Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season Ticket? |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Jonathan Morris wrote:
The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of the regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on. Naturally hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is either have everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some have to go in first. Surely first class can't be valid in those circumstances? It MUST be declassified as nobody would ever mark a service as having first class if passengers couldn't always use it. Broadly I've seen two different types of situation: 1). When commuting from Epsom to London a decade ago, all the regular trains (whether South West Trains or Network Connex Southern Central Whatever) were standard throughout (I can't remember the numbers for the exact stocks) and as every train on those lines stops at Epsom, stock with first class was very much unusual. (Complicating matters further, the slam doors that showed up tended to be South West Trains. However Epsom was/is run by Network South Central and Successors and information on SWT was very hard to obtain - they didn't even stock the SWT timetable for the route and Epsom is the largest station on the specific part of the line. So announcements were hard to come by.) 2). When commuting from Forest Gate. Sometimes through services serving towns in Essex get stopped at London suburban stations, mainly to relieve pressure (often one single suburban peak hour train being cancelled can mean you can't get onto the next three). So is first valid or not? And this is not an academic question given some of the congestion. And "one" is not known for caring about informing customers at small stations. Obviously in the first case the train isn't timetabled as having first class but it seems ticket inspectors don't follow this (and quite a lot tend to board at larger stations like Wimbledon and Clapham Junction where it's not a surprise to have a mixed train). And in the second is the train timetabled or not? |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Peter Masson wrote:
"Mystery Flyer" wrote in message ... A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going but he said I should technically have not got on it at all! That was presumably the Manchester Pullman. It, and its predecessor the Midland Pullman, were the only first class only scheduled daytime trains of the BR era, and between them ran from about 1960 to 1984. There were also a few trains formed of first class sleeping cars only, such as the 'Night Limited' (Euston - Glasgow). Thank you it was indeed the Manchester Pullman. I remember it more clearly now! mysteryflyer |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:50:13 on Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Matt Wheeler remarked: When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to leave the station An issue along similar lines: what about vestibules. I've often noticed people getting on a MML Meridian, and finding themselves in the vestibule between two First Class coaches (perhaps the Meridians aren't marked very well). They seem reluctant to walk through the train and therefore stand in the vestibule. Is this allowed? (I have an idea that standing in a FC *corridor* isn't allowed, but I'm no so sure about vestibules). The grippers don't seem to challenge them (although as far as I can see they rarely challenge anyone northbound between Leicester and Nottingham). -- Roland Perry I'm sure that the vestibules at the end of First class coaches don't actually fall under the aegis of being FC accommodation themselves. Perhaps said people feel they will be glared at in a hostile manner by FC passengers for traipsing through the FC coach so they don't bother. Personally I've no qualms about doing that, and quite enjoy injecting a bit of reality into the lives of those in FC! |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
In message . com, at
01:22:22 on Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mizter T remarked: Perhaps said people feel they will be glared at in a hostile manner by FC passengers for traipsing through the FC coach so they don't bother. I'm sure that's the reason (or maybe they fear they'll be stopped by a gripper and accused of fare dodging) Personally I've no qualms about doing that, and quite enjoy injecting a bit of reality into the lives of those in FC! The GNER grippers have accosted me when I've jumped into FC at the last minute departing from KX, and walked through. Don't they attempt to keep a locked door at the FC end of the buffet coach? -- Roland Perry |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Jonathan Morris wrote: Mizter T wrote: You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the rush hour! Depends on the route, obviously. Some morning trains will be packed, but others start from just one station back and are pretty empty. By the time it gets to Finsbury Park, it's pretty packed but not ridiculously so. True - the notion that all rush-hour trains are packed to the gills is an incorrect one. People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say just ask! I can sort of understand a family or group considering a train to be full when you can't get seats together, but few trains (bar the rush hour) are literally packed as people say (such as those who moan to the media about how our trains are always overcrowded). It's just that you may have to split up to get seated. In some rare instances, people will volunteer to move so people can sit together. I think even I might be a little too shy to ask people to swap seats! If you're with children then I don't think it unreasonable to ask passengers if they might be willing to swap so at least some of your group can sit together. And I'm quite receptive to moving so that a family, or perhaps another group, can all sit together - indeed I will volunteer, unprompted, to do just that. Dare I suggest that some members of this group, having found their 'ideal' seat, would not be so willing! The other thing that amuses of course is, on an Intercity service, the one or two passengers who install themselves at a table, spread out all over it and then seem most perturbed when others wish to intrude on their private patch and utilise one or more of the spare seats. Table seats are great, so long as one remembers they are for sharing! |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:16:39 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote: Bill Harris wrote: As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to First legitimately? Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and many people would just chance it. The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet sites. -- Bill Hayles http://www.rossrail.com |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
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Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Bill Hayles wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:16:39 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch wrote: Bill Harris wrote: As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to First legitimately? Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and many people would just chance it. The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet sites. One such website is this one: http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/grov_pk1.htm I've just read it with great interest. I was particularly amused by this bit: "As soon as the last door closes, the senior railman gives me the right away, I give a final quick check up and down the train and I give two rings on the bell. Unlike some drivers, who seem to go to sleep in their cabs, Fred starts off immediately." When time is of the essence it seems most bizarre that some drivers might aren't on the ball! May I, as a non-expert member of Joe Public, ask a few spectacularly basic questions... When you speak of "railmen", as in the above quote and elsewhere in the piece, this appears to specifically relate to station staff? I obviously understand that a "railwayman" is pretty much anyone employed on the railways (including p/way people as well) what specifically is meant by a "railman" or "railmen"? I also found the use of the term "dummy" when referring to ground signals a bizarre choice of word. As you can probably gather I don't really know an awful lot about railway signalling, but calling any signal a dummy signal suggests to my uneducated ears that it is a fake signal and doesn't actually do anything! This obviously isn't the case so I just wonder where the term came from? Lastly I was most amused to read the bit about the Americans getting angry that you couldn't arrange to hold the Paddington train, on which they had reserved seats, for them - it's just so ridiculous that I needn't say anything more! |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season Ticket? ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares, depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously unpleasant to travel therein. Neil |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
ups.com... Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season Ticket? ISTR that this is (or was) possible, and the charge is the difference between the Standard Open/Day Single and First Open/Day Single fares, depending on which is available for that journey (rarely will you find both). It has to be paid before boarding if there is a facility to do so, which is a bit of a pain because the only reason I would ever do it is if I saw Standard to be so busy that it would be seriously unpleasant to travel therein. The context was paying on board, not upgrading in advance, which you address, though your qualification "if there is a facility for doing so" isn't specifically referred to in : http://nationalrail.co.uk/system/gal...misc/NRCOC.pdf [Condition 39] which simply says that if you haven't done it an advance you are treated as having no ticket. In answer to the question "why", I can only assume it's a response to the perceived risk of abuse. -- Walter Mann |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 at 09:20:14AM -0800, Ianigsy wrote:
To my mind there's a difference between first class on a long-distance service, which is primarily aimed at the business traveller who wants to/is expected to work on the train and doesn't want any distractions, That clearly isn't the reason it exists. If it was, they'd not sell child tickets, nor would they sell tickets to football teams. -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza." "WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THERE IS A HOLE IN YOUR BUCKET?" |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
David Cantrell wrote:
That clearly isn't the reason it exists. If it was, they'd not sell child tickets, nor would they sell tickets to football teams. It isn't the *only* reason, but it is a significant reason, and the price point (very high) is typically aimed at that market, with the cheaper tickets existing as ever to fill spare seats. Indeed, the First Class seats on the WCML Desiros have what feels like a tighter pitch than the Standard ones (because the seat backs are thicker, but hey...) and are still 2+2 - the clear purpose here is that it's a choice between the Standard scrum (which isn't all that bad on the WCML commuter runs) and a more relaxed First Class journey, while the seats are usually substantially better on InterCity type routes. Neil |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
On 22 Jan 2007 03:58:27 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:
The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet sites. One such website is this one: http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/grov_pk1.htm I've just read it with great interest. I was particularly amused by this bit: "As soon as the last door closes, the senior railman gives me the right away, I give a final quick check up and down the train and I give two rings on the bell. Unlike some drivers, who seem to go to sleep in their cabs, Fred starts off immediately." When time is of the essence it seems most bizarre that some drivers might aren't on the ball! We worked under far less time pressure than is the case nowadays. (Minor) late running was accepted; early running, even by a few seconds, wasn't. May I, as a non-expert member of Joe Public, ask a few spectacularly basic questions... When you speak of "railmen", as in the above quote and elsewhere in the piece, this appears to specifically relate to station staff? Railman, Leading Railman and Senior Railman were official grades. In the olden days, they would have been called Porters or Ticket Collectors. The Railman grades were introduced to give flexibility - I don't know when. Most station staff would be Leading Railmen. Senior Railman was a fairly responsible job, and at the London Terminals, would be responsible for dispatching trains. I also found the use of the term "dummy" when referring to ground signals a bizarre choice of word. As you can probably gather I don't really know an awful lot about railway signalling, but calling any signal a dummy signal suggests to my uneducated ears that it is a fake signal and doesn't actually do anything! This obviously isn't the case so I just wonder where the term came from? I have no idea where it comes from - a "dummy" was officially called a subsidiary signal. Even different parts of the railway had (and probably still do have) their own local terms. But you learnt the local term in training and it stuck. Things move slowly on the railways. Even in the 1980s on what was at that time the South Eastern Division of British Rail, we talked about the "Eastern" lines and the "Chatham" lines, from the South Eastern Railway and London, Chatham & Dover Railway, which combined in 1899. Lastly I was most amused to read the bit about the Americans getting angry that you couldn't arrange to hold the Paddington train, on which they had reserved seats, for them - it's just so ridiculous that I needn't say anything more! Stuff like that wasn't uncommon - and is quite possibly even worse nowadays. -- Bill Hayles http://www.rossrail.com |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
Andrea ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying : I travelled First Class with FCC from Farringdon to Luton Airport yesterday evening. Got into the rear compartment to find that it was almost full but I got the last seat (Standard was full). Just after we departed, two FCC guys (presumably RPIs) came into the compartment and asked to view all First Clas tickets. At this point, several people tried to make for the door but were prevented from doing so. In the end, 7 people were penalty fared between Farringdon and West Hampstead Thameslink for sitting in First with a Standard ticket. They all got off at West Hampstead, where 3 more people came into the compartment. Immediately, the RPIs came in and all 3 got £20 penalty fare notices. Another 2 boarded at Harpenden - one had a First Class ticket and the other was penalty fared. A real field day for these RPIs! I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket checks. However, I've noticed that FCC RPIs are far more common now than previously on Thameslink, where there were hardly any checks at all north of the Thames. I don't quite understand. Are you claiming that the RPIs should not have done so...? Did you get a penalty fare, since you seem to be claiming that you sat in first class with a standard class ticket? |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
On 22 Jan 2007 01:22:22 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:
I'm sure that the vestibules at the end of First class coaches don't actually fall under the aegis of being FC accommodation themselves. I've been moved out of the corridor alongside the first class compartments on a CIG by the ticket collector, as the corridor was for first class passengers to stand in. -- Terry Harper Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society http://www.omnibussoc.org |
Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
In message . com, Bill
Harris writes As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to First legitimately? In the 1960s I travelled a lot using a rail warrant (Second Class in those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between first and second fares. I was in the Merchant Navy and the extra luggage allowance was significant, we had to be prepaered to be away for up to a year and able to survive from Arctic cold to Tropical heat. Bill Harris Hi Bill, Which mob were you with? Take it you saw the light eventually and got a proper job ashore? I'm still sailing, did my time (and then some) with BPTC now with Andrew Weirs - for my sins! -- James Christie |
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