Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

I travelled First Class with FCC from Farringdon to Luton Airport
yesterday evening.

Got into the rear compartment to find that it was almost full but I got
the last seat (Standard was full). Just after we departed, two FCC
guys (presumably RPIs) came into the compartment and asked to view all
First Clas tickets. At this point, several people tried to make for
the door but were prevented from doing so. In the end, 7 people were
penalty fared between Farringdon and West Hampstead Thameslink for
sitting in First with a Standard ticket. They all got off at West
Hampstead, where 3 more people came into the compartment. Immediately,
the RPIs came in and all 3 got £20 penalty fare notices. Another 2
boarded at Harpenden - one had a First Class ticket and the other was
penalty fared. A real field day for these RPIs!

I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket
checks. However, I've noticed that FCC RPIs are far more common now
than previously on Thameslink, where there were hardly any checks at
all north of the Thames.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"Andrea" wrote in message
ups.com...
I travelled First Class with FCC from Farringdon to Luton Airport
yesterday evening.

Got into the rear compartment to find that it was almost full but I got
the last seat (Standard was full). Just after we departed, two FCC
guys (presumably RPIs) came into the compartment and asked to view all
First Clas tickets. At this point, several people tried to make for
the door but were prevented from doing so. In the end, 7 people were
penalty fared between Farringdon and West Hampstead Thameslink for
sitting in First with a Standard ticket. They all got off at West
Hampstead, where 3 more people came into the compartment. Immediately,
the RPIs came in and all 3 got £20 penalty fare notices. Another 2
boarded at Harpenden - one had a First Class ticket and the other was
penalty fared. A real field day for these RPIs!

I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket
checks. However, I've noticed that FCC RPIs are far more common now
than previously on Thameslink, where there were hardly any checks at
all north of the Thames.


Superior class riding checks are a lucrative source of income, always have
been, and also good PR for First Class ticket holders.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

4sub wrote:
Superior class riding checks are a lucrative source of income, always have
been, and also good PR for First Class ticket holders.

Well done to the staff concerned.

I know Elaine Holt has said FCC will be very strict on fare evaders,
and that would also include those who feel it's okay to upgrade their
ticket for free. I only use First Class when it's declassified (or on
Thursday when my 3 hour train journey was 'off the record' declassified
by the driver) and would be very annoyed if someone was in there with a
standard ticket, or no ticket.

I've had short formed services declassified by the driver before, which
seems a fair way of dealing with overcrowding. In those circumstances,
I doubt a first class ticket holder would be upset if they knew that at
all other times things would be enforced strictly.

FCC are looking for more RPIs at the moment and I hope this means they
can continue gripping on trains, because recently (on the GN side)
they've all but disappeared because many stations are 'protected'
instead. In reality, many stations aren't really protected because
evaders simply run past, refuse to stop (and not all grippers will give
chase - but when they do, it's nice to watch the face of the evader,
even though they'll probably give false details), walk past giving the
finger (probably the worst because they're doing it for a laugh) or
jump walls to avoid gates/staff completely. And, gate staff can't
enforce first class compartments.

There's a lot of money to be made by being strict (as long as they
don't ONLY go after the easy pickings) and if FCC recently managed to
make a four figure sum by staying at a station until the last train
left, it does make me wonder why they aren't doing it more often.
Perhaps they will - and other TOCs will follow.

Jonathan

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In article . com,
(Andrea) wrote:

I travelled First Class with FCC from Farringdon to Luton Airport
yesterday evening.

Got into the rear compartment to find that it was almost full but I
got the last seat (Standard was full). Just after we departed, two FCC
guys (presumably RPIs) came into the compartment and asked to view
all First Clas tickets. At this point, several people tried to make
for
the door but were prevented from doing so. In the end, 7 people
were penalty fared between Farringdon and West Hampstead Thameslink for
sitting in First with a Standard ticket. They all got off at West
Hampstead, where 3 more people came into the compartment.
Immediately, the RPIs came in and all 3 got £20 penalty fare notices.
Another 2 boarded at Harpenden - one had a First Class ticket and the
other was penalty fared. A real field day for these RPIs!

I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First
on suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket
checks. However, I've noticed that FCC RPIs are far more common now
than previously on Thameslink, where there were hardly any checks at
all north of the Thames.

They must have got the extra RPIs from the GN. We hardly get checked at
times I travel between Cambridge and King's Cross nowadays.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Jonathan Morris wrote:

4sub wrote:
Superior class riding checks are a lucrative source of income, always have
been, and also good PR for First Class ticket holders.

Well done to the staff concerned.

Agreed - but I do recall an incident a couple of weeks ago on FCC (GN)
when I was legitimately travelling First with a Gold Card supplement; a
gripper appeared at Hitchin (the first time I'd seen one for a few
weeks!) and he could hardly hide the "I've-got-you" look from his face
- until he saw my ticket! We had a bit of friendly banter about it
afterwards.


I know Elaine Holt has said FCC will be very strict on fare evaders,
and that would also include those who feel it's okay to upgrade their
ticket for free. I only use First Class when it's declassified (or on
Thursday when my 3 hour train journey was 'off the record' declassified
by the driver) and would be very annoyed if someone was in there with a
standard ticket, or no ticket.

I've had short formed services declassified by the driver before, which
seems a fair way of dealing with overcrowding. In those circumstances,
I doubt a first class ticket holder would be upset if they knew that at
all other times things would be enforced strictly.

FCC are looking for more RPIs at the moment and I hope this means they
can continue gripping on trains, because recently (on the GN side)
they've all but disappeared because many stations are 'protected'
instead. In reality, many stations aren't really protected because
evaders simply run past, refuse to stop (and not all grippers will give
chase - but when they do, it's nice to watch the face of the evader,
even though they'll probably give false details), walk past giving the
finger (probably the worst because they're doing it for a laugh) or
jump walls to avoid gates/staff completely. And, gate staff can't
enforce first class compartments.

Not that many stations appear to be "protected"; AFAIAA (and based on
what I've seen) there are regular checks at KX suburban, Hatfield, WGC,
Stevenage (which is now gated) and Hitchin (I don't know about the
Hertford Loop) but that leaves a lot of stations open. In any case,
there's often no-one around late at night, when loutish behaviour is at
its worst; the gates at Stevenage seem to be left open after about
2130.


There's a lot of money to be made by being strict (as long as they
don't ONLY go after the easy pickings) and if FCC recently managed to
make a four figure sum by staying at a station until the last train
left, it does make me wonder why they aren't doing it more often.
Perhaps they will - and other TOCs will follow.

Jonathan

I recall a scene at Letchworth late one Saturday night. I had travelled
from KX on the 2315 Cambridge (first stop Letchworth) and the RPIs were
in force on arrival; the chorus of "oh s**t" from about 3/4 of those
alighting when they saw that they were going to be nicked was music to
my ears! I gathered from a colleague that about 40 PFIs (all for 2x
single from KX, ie about £25) were issued that night, ie about £1000.
I only wish they'd do it more often...

It's also occasional practice at Cambridge for the RPIs to form a
cordon to prevent access to late-evening departures for either KX or LS
(if the units are in the south bays) to anyone without a ticket,
especially on Friday and Saturday nights.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"Jonathan Morris" wrote:

There's a lot of money to be made by being strict (as long as they
don't ONLY go after the easy pickings) and if FCC recently managed to
make a four figure sum by staying at a station until the last train
left, it does make me wonder why they aren't doing it more often.
Perhaps they will - and other TOCs will follow.

Heathrow Connect seem to have an efficient gripper on every train. I presume
the PFs/surcharges collected cover the cost of the staff concerned. If this
is correct, one wonders why other TOCs don't follow the same model.

I suppose (amongst other difficulties) the pool of people willing to work,
reliably, as RPIs is limited. It must be a pretty thankless job.

Chris

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket

It's probably more common because standard is full, and whilst it's
admirable that the RPI's did their duty I feel the train company would be
better off concentrating on ensuring the size of train matches the number
of those travelling. Although maybe the overcrowding is deliberate to
encourage people to buy first class?

I'm on an annual standard and wouldn't sit in first unless I had
permission, but it is kind of galling to see empty seats, especially as I'm
the last stop before London so it's unlikely anyone else would need that
seat.

Dave

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket

It's probably more common because standard is full, and whilst it's
admirable that the RPI's did their duty I feel the train company would be
better off concentrating on ensuring the size of train matches the number
of those travelling. Although maybe the overcrowding is deliberate to
encourage people to buy first class?

I'm on an annual standard and wouldn't sit in first unless I had
permission, but it is kind of galling to see empty seats, especially as I'm
the last stop before London so it's unlikely anyone else would need that
seat.



But the whole point of first class is so that people pay not to have to
sit next to people like you (or me).

Empty seats around them is the whole intention, which is ridiculous in
overcrowded trains. It would be better to get rid of the concept of
first class altogether. For anyone who really misses it on that sort
of line, where there is no tea service or anything, they just need to
bring a hanky with them to put on the back of the seat.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few ticket

It's probably more common because standard is full, and whilst it's
admirable that the RPI's did their duty I feel the train company would be
better off concentrating on ensuring the size of train matches the number
of those travelling. Although maybe the overcrowding is deliberate to
encourage people to buy first class?

I'm on an annual standard and wouldn't sit in first unless I had
permission, but it is kind of galling to see empty seats, especially as I'm
the last stop before London so it's unlikely anyone else would need that
seat.

Dave

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

In the 1960s I travelled a lot using a rail warrant (Second Class in
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between
first and second fares. I was in the Merchant Navy and the extra
luggage allowance was significant, we had to be prepaered to be away
for up to a year and able to survive from Arctic cold to Tropical heat.

Bill Harris

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"DaveP" wrote in message
52...
I suspect that this kind of thing (Standard people sitting in First
on
suburban lines in London) is very common, where there are few
ticket

It's probably more common because standard is full, and whilst it's
admirable that the RPI's did their duty I feel the train company
would be
better off concentrating on ensuring the size of train matches the
number
of those travelling. Although maybe the overcrowding is deliberate
to
encourage people to buy first class?


When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.
Its fair to say that buying a ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, just
travel (seat reservations excepted).

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason
is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and
many people would just chance it.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Why not? I've done it several times in the couple of years the same way that
you describe.

"Bill Harris" wrote in message
ups.com...

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

In the 1960s I travelled a lot using a rail warrant (Second Class in
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between
first and second fares. I was in the Merchant Navy and the extra
luggage allowance was significant, we had to be prepaered to be away
for up to a year and able to survive from Arctic cold to Tropical heat.

Bill Harris

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

I have sat in first class on a long distance train with a standard class
ticket with the aim to upgrade, and none of the crews have ever tried to
penalise me.

When the conductor takes my ticket, I simply say that I would like to
upgrade to first class, pay the difference and everybody is happy..

"Joyce Whitchurch" wrote in message
...
Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason is
that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and many
people would just chance it.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message , at 10:16:39 on Sun, 21 Jan
2007, Joyce Whitchurch remarked:
As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train.

Although MML at weekends have been known to announce the availability of
their "Weekend First" upgrades, on the train, and collect the money
while doing the ticket check.

The reason is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the
train and many people would just chance it.


--
Roland Perry

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

MIG wrote:

But the whole point of first class is so that people pay not to have to
sit next to people like you (or me).

Empty seats around them is the whole intention, which is ridiculous in
overcrowded trains. It would be better to get rid of the concept of
first class altogether. For anyone who really misses it on that sort
of line, where there is no tea service or anything, they just need to
bring a hanky with them to put on the back of the seat.

The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of the
regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on. Naturally
hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is either have
everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some have to go in
first.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.

That was my interpretation of other peoples actions, as I said at the end,
I personally wouldn't, because I don't want the argument about the rights
or wrongs of it and the ultimate PF. In fact as a season ticket holder I
don't think that's an option if I'm caught in first - they just confiscate
the ticket on the spot because you should have known better. But it doesn't
make it frustrating to see spare seats going begging for the journey - the
last stop before everyone gets off and you know they're not going to be
used.

The train I get each morning has all its seats occupied by people (I would
always ask someone to move their bag/feet/shopping or move out so I can use
the blocked window seat). This is at 6.50 on a 4 coach train with two
virtually empty first class compartments which could seat maybe 18 people
each.

Regards, Dave

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

But the whole point of first class is so that people pay not to have
to sit next to people like you (or me).

On long distances I can understand this, along with the seat service that's
what you pay for (although I imagine in most cases, that's what your
company pays for).

It's not a problem having first class on commuter trains if the rest of the
train has space to carrying everyone who wants to travel. All this crap the
train companies spout about people having flexible tickets and not knowing
when they might travel is ********. They've made a financial choice to put
short trains on and should just say so.

Regards, Dave

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

wrote in message
.uk...
I have sat in first class on a long distance train with a standard class
ticket with the aim to upgrade, and none of the crews have ever tried to
penalise me.

Different rules apply in Penalty Fares areas.

You're correct that elsewhere on National Rail, unless you're using a Season
Ticket, there's no penalty for asking for an upgrade in 1st Class from an
ordinary walk-on Standard ticket beyond the appropriate difference in fares.
That being said, the fares structure nowadays is so convoluted that - except
for an upgrade to Weekend First - it might be quite difficult working out
what you'd actually end up being asked to pay.

--
Walter Mann

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of
the regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on.
Naturally hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is
either have everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some
have to go in first.

You might like to check with your TOC - my line (FCC) regard it as first
class if it's advertised in the timetable, otherwise it's usable by anyone.
Anyone holding a first class ticket wouldn't aim to board such a train
anyway (though it's probably a TOC specific thing).

I regularly used the one train in the morning and two in the evening which
are formed of 317 units carrying first class accomodation which were not
timetable-advertised with no issues, it was generally the difference
between getting a seat and not getting a seat.

There is sometimes a discussion with the inexperienced RPI's but once
they've checked it out they politely come back and accept standard tickets
(with the "ooh I've just come" look wiped from their faces).

Regards,
Dave

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of the
regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on. Naturally
hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is either have
everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some have to go in
first.

Surely first class can't be valid in those circumstances? It MUST be
declassified as nobody would ever mark a service as having first class
if passengers couldn't always use it.

This is why services that are operated by 313s on FCC GN won't have
first class, even though a lot of the time the Letchworth/Royston rush
hour trains will use a 317 (and also some services returning at the end
of rush hour from WGC in the morning to KGX and then back to the
depot). The timetable clearly shows them as being standard class only.

Jonathan

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Roland Perry wrote:
Although MML at weekends have been known to announce the availability of
their "Weekend First" upgrades, on the train, and collect the money
while doing the ticket check.

One did that when we went to Chelmsford for V-festival. ISTR it wasn't
much either.

If the train is a service that always has a ticket check (like most
Inter-city services), I'd expect there to be a good chance I could
upgrade as fare evasion is, in theory, impossible.

However, on a suburban commuter route where the ticket checking is
usually at the station, it's obvious it would be abused. Therefore the
only logical solution is to issue a penalty fare, or introduce some
clever, and expensive, 'ticket by SMS' option that allows you to send a
text to upgrade or buy a ticket and get a reference number that can be
shown and confirmed - proving you did so when you boarded and not one
second before the RPI turned up! Seems like a lot of effort though!

Jonathan

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Matt Wheeler wrote:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.

I've been on a couple of services where I could genuinely say that it
was full (all seats). This is more likely in the rush hour, where
people will ask passengers to move bags and coats off otherwise empty
seats.

At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

As for half the train being empty, that's also true at times.

Jonathan

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message , at 09:50:13 on
Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Matt Wheeler remarked:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station

An issue along similar lines: what about vestibules. I've often noticed
people getting on a MML Meridian, and finding themselves in the
vestibule between two First Class coaches (perhaps the Meridians aren't
marked very well).

They seem reluctant to walk through the train and therefore stand in the
vestibule. Is this allowed? (I have an idea that standing in a FC
*corridor* isn't allowed, but I'm no so sure about vestibules). The
grippers don't seem to challenge them (although as far as I can see they
rarely challenge anyone northbound between Leicester and Nottingham).
--
Roland Perry

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Jonathan Morris wrote:

Matt Wheeler wrote:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station.

I've been on a couple of services where I could genuinely say that it
was full (all seats). This is more likely in the rush hour, where
people will ask passengers to move bags and coats off otherwise empty
seats.

You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where
there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the
rush hour!


At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say
just ask!

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message .com, at
05:10:01 on Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Jonathan Morris
remarked:
At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

I often seem to get a reservation in seat 1 of Meridians. This is the
corner seat at the end of the coach. It's also the seat that seems to be
a prime target for occasional travellers to slump into (first they see
when they get on board), complete with half a dozen assorted bags.

The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to be
a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
--
Roland Perry

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message , Roland Perry
writes
In message .com, at
05:10:01 on Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Jonathan Morris
remarked:
At most other times, it's a case of people trying to keep empty seats
next to them - and people are too scared to ask them to move whatever
it is they've put there. Should this count as a full to capacity train?
It's certainly the majority. I have no hesitation to ask someone to
move something, but you will often get the look that says 'That's MY
seat - how dare you take it'. You just have to get on with it, or be
willing to stand.

I often seem to get a reservation in seat 1 of Meridians. This is the
corner seat at the end of the coach. It's also the seat that seems to
be a prime target for occasional travellers to slump into (first they
see when they get on board), complete with half a dozen assorted bags.

The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to be
a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
Seats should not be occupied by bags, I have frequently found my
reserved seat to be occupied by a bag belonging to The woman in the next
seat, They get asked to remove IT.
--
martyn dawe

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message , at 13:49:30 on Sun,
21 Jan 2007, martyn dawe remarked:
The problem when asking them to move is answering the inevitable
question "so where are my bags supposed to go"? There never seems to
be a Meridian Train Designer handy when you need to refer people to them!
Seats should not be occupied by bags,

I know that, and you know that (and so do most of the people posting
here).

I have frequently found my reserved seat to be occupied by a bag
belonging to The woman in the next seat, They get asked to remove IT.

And what if "it" is three or four carrier bags, a handbag and a
rucksack? The people who are struggling with loads like this are not
often in the best of moods, and seem to want to know where else they are
expected to put all their luggage.

I am not particularly interested in spending the next two hours wedged
next to someone whose nose has been put out of joint by decisions made
long ago by a Meridian Designer, but blames me.
--
Roland Perry

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Mizter T wrote:
You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where
there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the
rush hour!

Depends on the route, obviously. Some morning trains will be packed,
but others start from just one station back and are pretty empty. By
the time it gets to Finsbury Park, it's pretty packed but not
ridiculously so.

People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say
just ask!

I can sort of understand a family or group considering a train to be
full when you can't get seats together, but few trains (bar the rush
hour) are literally packed as people say (such as those who moan to the
media about how our trains are always overcrowded). It's just that you
may have to split up to get seated. In some rare instances, people will
volunteer to move so people can sit together. I think even I might be a
little too shy to ask people to swap seats!

Jonathan

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from
Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of
on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going
but he said I should technically have not got on it at all!

mysteryflyer

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for all the comments - it just seemed that it was no longer
possible under any circumstances to upgrade once you had boarded the
train.

As I am now retired and have a disabled wife who cannot easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted nowadays

Thanks again

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for the comments - the way the thread started it sounded as
though it was not possible under any circumstances to upgrade.

As I am now retired and my wife is disabled and unable to easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted

Thanks for the replies

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for the comments - the way the thread started it sounded as
though it was not possible under any circumstances to upgrade.

As I am now retired and my wife is disabled and unable to easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted

Thanks for the replies

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for the comments - the way the thread started it sounded as
though it was not possible under any circumstances to upgrade.

As I am now retired and my wife is disabled and unable to easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted

Thanks for the replies

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for the comments - the way the thread started it sounded as
though it was not possible under any circumstances to upgrade.

As I am now retired and my wife is disabled and unable to easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted

Thanks for the replies

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
those days) and I regularly upgraded to First - if I had time I would
do it at the ticket office or if the train was busy I would sit in
first and pay the excess fare - definately only the difference between

You can do this if you have a normal ticket, but not a season ticket. If
you have a season ticket you are treated as a fare-dodger and they will
likely withdraw the season ticket at the same time for inappropriate use.

The conditions of carriage state the ticket upgrade must be purchased
before the journey begins if you have a season.

Regards, Dave

Thanks for the comments - the way the thread started it sounded as
though it was not possible under any circumstances to upgrade.

As I am now retired and my wife is disabled and unable to easily use
public transport my train travel is very restricted

Thanks for the replies

Bill

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

DaveP wrote:
But the whole point of first class is so that people pay not to have
to sit next to people like you (or me).

On long distances I can understand this, along with the seat service that's
what you pay for (although I imagine in most cases, that's what your
company pays for).

It's not a problem having first class on commuter trains if the rest of the
train has space to carrying everyone who wants to travel. All this crap the
train companies spout about people having flexible tickets and not knowing
when they might travel is ********. They've made a financial choice to put
short trains on and should just say so.

Regards, Dave

To my mind there's a difference between first class on a long-distance
service, which is primarily aimed at the business traveller who wants
to/is expected to work on the train and doesn't want any distractions,
and on a suburban service where it's largely a matter of those who can
afford to paying more for a comfy seat on the way to and from work.

As regards first being declassified where it isn't advertised in the
timetable, the interesting one for me is the 321/4 that Northern
currently have on hire for Leeds-Doncaster diagrams. A colleague who
commutes from Sandal & Agbrigg has often used the first class
compartment, however if I were a first class ticket holder who changed
at Doncaster I'd expect it to be treated as full first class (even
though it's essentially a bonus in the circumstances).

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"Mystery Flyer" wrote in message
...
A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from
Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of
on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going
but he said I should technically have not got on it at all!

That was presumably the Manchester Pullman. It, and its predecessor the
Midland Pullman, were the only first class only scheduled daytime trains of
the BR era, and between them ran from about 1960 to 1984. There were also a
few trains formed of first class sleeping cars only, such as the 'Night
Limited' (Euston - Glasgow).

In the Victorian era first class only trains were not unusual - the Great
North of Scotland Railway even ran a train which was advertised as first
class only, but third class accommodation available for servants
accompanying passengers travelling first class.

AFAIK there haven't been any first class only scheduled trains since 1984.

Peter

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Mystery Flyer" wrote in message
...
A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from
Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of
on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going
but he said I should technically have not got on it at all!

That was presumably the Manchester Pullman. It, and its predecessor the
Midland Pullman, were the only first class only scheduled daytime trains
of
the BR era, and between them ran from about 1960 to 1984. There were also
a
few trains formed of first class sleeping cars only, such as the 'Night
Limited' (Euston - Glasgow).

In the Victorian era first class only trains were not unusual - the Great
North of Scotland Railway even ran a train which was advertised as first
class only, but third class accommodation available for servants
accompanying passengers travelling first class.

AFAIK there haven't been any first class only scheduled trains since 1984.

Peter

The only first class only we worked on the Southern was the Boat Trains
Waterloo/Southampton Docks where my guards at Clapham Jct and RPI's at
Cannon Street at a later date were employed in 'Cap doffing duties'

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

"4sub" wrote

The only first class only we worked on the Southern was the Boat Trains
Waterloo/Southampton Docks where my guards at Clapham Jct and RPI's at
Cannon Street at a later date were employed in 'Cap doffing duties'

In the 1960s the Southern also ran first class only trains from Waterloo to
Ascot for the Royal Ascot Race Meeting - using 4CORs, with the second class
seats reclqassified by the simple expedient of adding antimacassars. The
Western ran a 'First Class and Members' Special' from Paddington to Newbury
Racecourse, and included a couple of 'Ocean Saloons' in teh rake.

Peter