Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Peter Masson wrote:
"4sub" wrote

The only first class only we worked on the Southern was the Boat Trains
Waterloo/Southampton Docks where my guards at Clapham Jct and RPI's at
Cannon Street at a later date were employed in 'Cap doffing duties'

In the 1960s the Southern also ran first class only trains from Waterloo to
Ascot for the Royal Ascot Race Meeting - using 4CORs, with the second class
seats reclqassified by the simple expedient of adding antimacassars. The
Western ran a 'First Class and Members' Special' from Paddington to Newbury
Racecourse, and included a couple of 'Ocean Saloons' in teh rake.

Peter

Around 1990 when I lived in Bristol, there was an unadvertised
Bristol-Paddington relief laid on for employees of a major bank which
had moved part if not all of its offices from London to Bristol. It
ran about 15 minutes behind the normal HST service, called at Bath and
Reading (I think) and was hauled by a BR long range 47. I'm not sure
whether it was intentionally all first class, however on occasion I did
notice that it was formed of all first class coaches.

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Walter Mann wrote:

You're correct that elsewhere on National Rail, unless you're using a
Season Ticket, there's no penalty for asking for an upgrade in 1st Class
from an ordinary walk-on Standard ticket beyond the appropriate difference
in fares.

Why no option to upgrade on an individual journey when using a Season
Ticket?

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Jonathan Morris wrote:

The worst I've found is on sub-urban commuter routes where very few of
the
regular stock have first class but occasionally one gets put on.
Naturally
hardly anyone's got a first class ticket and the result is either have
everyone squeeze into standard class like sardines or some have to go in
first.

Surely first class can't be valid in those circumstances? It MUST be
declassified as nobody would ever mark a service as having first class
if passengers couldn't always use it.

Broadly I've seen two different types of situation:

1). When commuting from Epsom to London a decade ago, all the regular trains
(whether South West Trains or Network Connex Southern Central Whatever) were
standard throughout (I can't remember the numbers for the exact stocks) and
as every train on those lines stops at Epsom, stock with first class was
very much unusual. (Complicating matters further, the slam doors that showed
up tended to be South West Trains. However Epsom was/is run by Network South
Central and Successors and information on SWT was very hard to obtain - they
didn't even stock the SWT timetable for the route and Epsom is the largest
station on the specific part of the line. So announcements were hard to come
by.)

2). When commuting from Forest Gate. Sometimes through services serving
towns in Essex get stopped at London suburban stations, mainly to relieve
pressure (often one single suburban peak hour train being cancelled can mean
you can't get onto the next three). So is first valid or not? And this is
not an academic question given some of the congestion. And "one" is not
known for caring about informing customers at small stations.

Obviously in the first case the train isn't timetabled as having first class
but it seems ticket inspectors don't follow this (and quite a lot tend to
board at larger stations like Wimbledon and Clapham Junction where it's not
a surprise to have a mixed train). And in the second is the train timetabled
or not?

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Peter Masson wrote:
"Mystery Flyer" wrote in message
...
A long time ago (1984 ish) I was on a First Class Only service from
Crewe I seem to rembember. Do such things still exist. The RPI let me of
on the grounds that it was the only train to get me to where I was going
but he said I should technically have not got on it at all!

That was presumably the Manchester Pullman. It, and its predecessor the
Midland Pullman, were the only first class only scheduled daytime trains of
the BR era, and between them ran from about 1960 to 1984. There were also a
few trains formed of first class sleeping cars only, such as the 'Night
Limited' (Euston - Glasgow).


Thank you it was indeed the Manchester Pullman. I remember it more
clearly now!

mysteryflyer

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:50:13 on
Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Matt Wheeler remarked:
When you say "full" do you mean that all standard class areas have
fully occupied seats and no standing room, or the more usual, no
desirable seats available (occupied by people/bags) and the rear
carriage is half empty as it means a long walk at the destination to
leave the station

An issue along similar lines: what about vestibules. I've often noticed
people getting on a MML Meridian, and finding themselves in the
vestibule between two First Class coaches (perhaps the Meridians aren't
marked very well).

They seem reluctant to walk through the train and therefore stand in the
vestibule. Is this allowed? (I have an idea that standing in a FC
*corridor* isn't allowed, but I'm no so sure about vestibules). The
grippers don't seem to challenge them (although as far as I can see they
rarely challenge anyone northbound between Leicester and Nottingham).
--
Roland Perry


I'm sure that the vestibules at the end of First class coaches don't
actually fall under the aegis of being FC accommodation themselves.

Perhaps said people feel they will be glared at in a hostile manner by
FC passengers for traipsing through the FC coach so they don't bother.
Personally I've no qualms about doing that, and quite enjoy injecting a
bit of reality into the lives of those in FC!

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In message . com, at
01:22:22 on Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mizter T remarked:
Perhaps said people feel they will be glared at in a hostile manner by
FC passengers for traipsing through the FC coach so they don't bother.

I'm sure that's the reason (or maybe they fear they'll be stopped by a
gripper and accused of fare dodging)

Personally I've no qualms about doing that, and quite enjoy injecting a
bit of reality into the lives of those in FC!

The GNER grippers have accosted me when I've jumped into FC at the last
minute departing from KX, and walked through. Don't they attempt to keep
a locked door at the FC end of the buffet coach?
--
Roland Perry

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Jonathan Morris wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
You're a lucky man if you've only been on a couple of trains where
there are no available seats - it's not an unusual situation in the
rush hour!

Depends on the route, obviously. Some morning trains will be packed,
but others start from just one station back and are pretty empty. By
the time it gets to Finsbury Park, it's pretty packed but not
ridiculously so.

True - the notion that all rush-hour trains are packed to the gills is
an incorrect one.


People can be pathetic wilting violets in such situations - as you say
just ask!

I can sort of understand a family or group considering a train to be
full when you can't get seats together, but few trains (bar the rush
hour) are literally packed as people say (such as those who moan to the
media about how our trains are always overcrowded). It's just that you
may have to split up to get seated. In some rare instances, people will
volunteer to move so people can sit together. I think even I might be a
little too shy to ask people to swap seats!


If you're with children then I don't think it unreasonable to ask
passengers if they might be willing to swap so at least some of your
group can sit together.

And I'm quite receptive to moving so that a family, or perhaps another
group, can all sit together - indeed I will volunteer, unprompted, to
do just that. Dare I suggest that some members of this group, having
found their 'ideal' seat, would not be so willing!

The other thing that amuses of course is, on an Intercity service, the
one or two passengers who install themselves at a table, spread out all
over it and then seem most perturbed when others wish to intrude on
their private patch and utilise one or more of the spare seats. Table
seats are great, so long as one remembers they are for sharing!

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:16:39 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote:

Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason
is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and
many people would just chance it.

The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's
mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet
sites.


--
Bill Hayles
http://www.rossrail.com

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

The GNER grippers have accosted me when I've jumped into FC at the
last minute departing from KX, and walked through. Don't they
attempt to keep a locked door at the FC end of the buffet coach?

Never seen that. You have to walk the length of First Class to get to the
train manager's office. I've never had to get the staff to open the door
from the buffet.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Penalty fares for sitting in First Class
 

Bill Hayles wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:16:39 +0000, Joyce Whitchurch
wrote:

Bill Harris wrote:

As an aside to this thread. Is it no lomger possible to upgrade to
First legitimately?

Only by doing so at the booking office, never on the train. The reason
is that otherwise, there's no "penalty" for upgrading on the train and
many people would just chance it.

The rule changed in 1986 - it came in whilst I was a guard. It's
mentioned in my "Day in the Life" piece which is on various Internet
sites.


One such website is this one:
http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/grov_pk1.htm

I've just read it with great interest.

I was particularly amused by this bit:
"As soon as the last door closes, the senior railman gives me the right
away, I give a final quick check up and down the train and I give two
rings on the bell.
Unlike some drivers, who seem to go to sleep in their cabs, Fred starts
off immediately."

When time is of the essence it seems most bizarre that some drivers
might aren't on the ball!

May I, as a non-expert member of Joe Public, ask a few spectacularly
basic questions...

When you speak of "railmen", as in the above quote and elsewhere in the
piece, this appears to specifically relate to station staff? I
obviously understand that a "railwayman" is pretty much anyone employed
on the railways (including p/way people as well) what specifically is
meant by a "railman" or "railmen"?

I also found the use of the term "dummy" when referring to ground
signals a bizarre choice of word. As you can probably gather I don't
really know an awful lot about railway signalling, but calling any
signal a dummy signal suggests to my uneducated ears that it is a fake
signal and doesn't actually do anything! This obviously isn't the case
so I just wonder where the term came from?

Lastly I was most amused to read the bit about the Americans getting
angry that you couldn't arrange to hold the Paddington train, on which
they had reserved seats, for them - it's just so ridiculous that I
needn't say anything more!