Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like Finchley
Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to Central) and vice
versa.

In the past, if a train already on one platform gets there first, and the
train on the other platform is just pulling in, they used to wait for the
passengers on the second train to get out and run across the platform to
the waiting one.

Over the past month or two I've noticed that trains are closing their doors
on one just as the new train is opening its doors to let passengers off.

This has particularly been the case on the District/Central interchange at
Mile End.

Now, I don't mind if there's another train 1 minute behind, but this
morning, and last night, it was about 7 minutes when I went from Central to
District at Mile End, and about 4 minutes when I went from District to
Central this morning.

Have drivers been told no longer to wait? Has there been a general "don't
give a ****" increase among drivers or controllers? What's going on?

I must say though that the courtesy between DLR trains at Poplar (people
going from Canary Wharf to Beckton and changing at Poplar) is still alive
and well and trains indeed wait. But no such courtesy between District and
Central any more.

I've only witnessed this lack of courtesy at Finchley Road once, so perhaps
that was a one-off. And I don't use this interchange much. But I use the
Mile End one every day and it's getting increasingly on my goat.



BEFORE ANYONE LEAPS DOWN MY THROAT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO STICK TO
TIMETABLES ETC - I just wanted to say that IN THE PAST they waited, they
don't now (or they're less likely to do so now). That's all.

Sorry for being so indistinct. Probably didn't make a lot of sense there.
:-))

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:32:16 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like Finchley
Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to Central) and vice
versa.

I've noticed this at Hammersmith/Barons Court, too.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Tristán White wrote:

I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like Finchley
Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to Central) and vice
versa.

(snip)

I must say though that the courtesy between DLR trains at Poplar (people
going from Canary Wharf to Beckton and changing at Poplar) is still alive
and well and trains indeed wait. But no such courtesy between District and
Central any more.

The courtesy you speak of at Poplar is courtesy of the computer! The
DLR timetable is specifically designed to enable cross-platform
interchange between two trains at Poplar - if you observe what happens
there you'll see that two trains very often pull into the two faces of
the island platforms (i.e. facing each other across the island
platform) at the same time - this is no accident!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Tristán White wrote:
I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like Finchley
Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to Central) and vice
versa.

In the past, if a train already on one platform gets there first, and the
train on the other platform is just pulling in, they used to wait for the
passengers on the second train to get out and run across the platform to
the waiting one.

Over the past month or two I've noticed that trains are closing their doors
on one just as the new train is opening its doors to let passengers off.

This has particularly been the case on the District/Central interchange at
Mile End.

Now, I don't mind if there's another train 1 minute behind, but this
morning, and last night, it was about 7 minutes when I went from Central to
District at Mile End, and about 4 minutes when I went from District to
Central this morning.

Have drivers been told no longer to wait? Has there been a general "don't
give a ****" increase among drivers or controllers? What's going on?

I must say though that the courtesy between DLR trains at Poplar (people
going from Canary Wharf to Beckton and changing at Poplar) is still alive
and well and trains indeed wait. But no such courtesy between District and
Central any more.

I've only witnessed this lack of courtesy at Finchley Road once, so perhaps
that was a one-off. And I don't use this interchange much. But I use the
Mile End one every day and it's getting increasingly on my goat.



BEFORE ANYONE LEAPS DOWN MY THROAT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO STICK TO
TIMETABLES ETC - I just wanted to say that IN THE PAST they waited, they
don't now (or they're less likely to do so now). That's all.

Sorry for being so indistinct. Probably didn't make a lot of sense there.
:-))



I wouldn't be surprised, given that bus drivers are definitely
instructed not to stop at compulsory bus stops any more, unless someone
very forcefully requests it, and given that "target dwell times" at
each station are an instruction to shut doors on passengers (I've had
an admission of this in writing).

However, it occurs to me that there used to be signs addressed to the
guard at places like Mile End, asking them to wait. Now that there
aren't any guards, it's less practical for the driver to be keeping an
eye out for trains in a different platform, being only able to look in
mirror at their own train. Another benefit of reducing staff ...

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:

Tristán White wrote:
I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

(snip)


I wouldn't be surprised, given that bus drivers are definitely
instructed not to stop at compulsory bus stops any more, unless someone
very forcefully requests it, and given that "target dwell times" at
each station are an instruction to shut doors on passengers (I've had
an admission of this in writing).

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does. Though yes, on reflection, on a few
occasions at busy times when there's been a queue of buses at the stop
I have seen one of them sail by on the outside lane.


However, it occurs to me that there used to be signs addressed to the
guard at places like Mile End, asking them to wait. Now that there
aren't any guards, it's less practical for the driver to be keeping an
eye out for trains in a different platform, being only able to look in
mirror at their own train. Another benefit of reducing staff ...

I've seen such signs recently-ish, perhaps at Finchley Rd or Queens
Park (or both), so it's not something that vanished with the guards.
Perhaps it's a result of each lines punctuality drive - maybe they're
getting competitive between themselves?

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Mizter T wrote:

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does.

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

Notably in Milton Keynes people often don't on even the hail and ride
routes - yet I've never noticed anyone appear to get missed as a
result. The drivers must be psychic...

Neil

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Moving back to the tubes, I've noticed the same at Stockwell changing
from Northern to Victoria - in this case although the link between the
platforms is not open for the drivers to see, it's clear that when a
large group of passengers walk out onto the platform that a northern
line train has just emptied out, yet the driver will invariably close
the doors and pull out. While at peak times this is no great loss as
there won't be a long delay between VL services, off-peak it can mean
7-9 minutes wasted at times. What's more, in this case the VL train is
invariably empty having just left Brixton, so LU is basically wasting
not only the infrastructure of having the tube lines running parallel
but also the capacity! Can it be that hard to have a cctv feed from the
opposite platform for the driver to see??


Neil Williams wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does.

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

Notably in Milton Keynes people often don't on even the hail and ride
routes - yet I've never noticed anyone appear to get missed as a
result. The drivers must be psychic...

Neil

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On 22 Jan 2007 23:26:02 -0800, Neil Williams wrote:

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

Also on stops served by more than one line? Here in Kristiansand, Norway
the custom is for buses to always stop on the part of the routes that are
not served by other lines, elsewhere you have to signal.

--
jhk

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does.

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.
--
Michael Hoffman

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

"artemis99" wrote in message
oups.com...

Moving back to the tubes, I've noticed the same at Stockwell changing
from Northern to Victoria -

Absolutely. And changing from a Bank train cross-platform to a Charging
Cross train at Kennington.

They do it to wind the passengers up - there can't be any other reason.

Ian

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Michael Hoffman wrote:
Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I've not really noticed such problems at bus stops - what I have
noticed is people being lazy and not requesting their bus, expecting it
will stop because it always does.

Could some of them be foreign? I ask because in Germany it is not
necessary to signal a bus to stop - indeed, it is more usual to wave it
past if you do *not* want it. In the Netherlands it is usually not
necessary to signal.

I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.



There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

Also on stops served by more than one line? Here in Kristiansand, Norway
the custom is for buses to always stop on the part of the routes that are
not served by other lines, elsewhere you have to signal.

Yes, though because they tend to design their networks around
connnections this happens a lot less than it does in the UK.

Neil

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.

Neil

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Neil Williams wrote:
MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.


It would allow people to change bus as well: you can't signal the
following bus from inside the previous one.

The trouble is that the only "performance indicator" for London's buses
at the moment is whether the bus arrives at the end of its route on
time, empty or not. This may happen to hugely increase individuals'
journey times and make buses less attractive, but it doesn't seem to
matter to TfL.

Similar on the Underground (nearly back to thread) where people who
stand back politely to let people get off have no chance of getting on
at stations like Bank on the Northern, and the train departs nearly
empty with a crowd on the platform, sometimes before everyone has had a
chance to get off.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:

(snip)

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?


Have drivers been officially instructed to do that? I'm certain that
it's hasn't become official TfL policy to treat all stops at request
stops.

I can quite believe that it has become the unofficial policy at some
bus companies though, as it happened to me this morning - i.e. a bus
slowed down at a compulsory stop, indicated, but then pulled out again.
In mitigation I should add that it was busy, with another two buses
behind, and I suspect I didn't convey much purpose and meaning as I was
half asleep! Normally I always stick my hand out whatever type of stop
I'm at, but this morning I didn't, perhaps as I had this discussion in
my head.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the bus, and
just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers have
stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that on the
approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail and
forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of occasions!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
MIG wrote:

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Maybe they will. It'd take a long time to replace them all...

Back to the other point about multiple routes, surely it's on a
multiple-routes stop that it's most important that buses stop anyway,
as it otherwise leads to the British stupidity where buses drive
directly behind other buses approaching busy stops so you have to be
very quick to signal the right one. For that reason I'd support making
all such bus stops compulsory stops - that, or split them out.


It would allow people to change bus as well: you can't signal the
following bus from inside the previous one.

The trouble is that the only "performance indicator" for London's buses
at the moment is whether the bus arrives at the end of its route on
time, empty or not. This may happen to hugely increase individuals'
journey times and make buses less attractive, but it doesn't seem to
matter to TfL.

As a counter-point to that it means that those on the bus are not left
dawdling around. It's purely subjective but my memory of bus journeys
of old was that they weren't as snappy as nowadays. Yes, this has a
number of downsides, but I quite like the sense of urgency that now
seems to pervade bus operations in London, because ultimately I want to
get from A to B.

If changes of bus are involved then it may well be that there are
several routes serving a particular corridor that a passenger could
use. Also, of course, there are often more buses on each route
nowadays, and I think a frequent service on bus routes where big gaps
between buses are avoided as much as possible really does inspire
confidence in the bus network. There's nothing worse than waiting at a
stop for ages. I'd suggest factoring in these considerations when
weighing up such matters.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

(snip)

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?


Have drivers been officially instructed to do that? I'm certain that
it's hasn't become official TfL policy to treat all stops at request
stops.



Well, I have it off the cuff from a bus driver, whose comment perfectly
matched my experience. I can't prove where the instructions come from,
but they certainly apply.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Mizter T wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the bus, and
just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers have
stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that on the
approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger the
driver would forget.


I make a point of ringing the bell every time now, no matter how
obvious it might seem that I need to be let off, having been stuck on
the bus more than once before (eg at Trafalgar Square at a compulsory
stop in the rush hour when I was standing by the door).

It's a kind of passenger protest some of the time. "I don't care how
annoying it is to you to have a chorus of rings at every stop. Perhaps
if you generally stopped at bus stops you'd have a quieter ride."


Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail and
forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of occasions!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not requesting the
stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in Germany it has been necessary
to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them, and
sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change buses there,
when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the bus, and
just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers have
stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that on the
approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail and
forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]? This is
where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

"Mizter T" typed


As a counter-point to that it means that those on the bus are not left
dawdling around. It's purely subjective but my memory of bus journeys
of old was that they weren't as snappy as nowadays. Yes, this has a
number of downsides, but I quite like the sense of urgency that now
seems to pervade bus operations in London, because ultimately I want to
get from A to B.

This is no fun for standing passengers, especially if old or infirm.

If changes of bus are involved then it may well be that there are
several routes serving a particular corridor that a passenger could
use. Also, of course, there are often more buses on each route
nowadays, and I think a frequent service on bus routes where big gaps
between buses are avoided as much as possible really does inspire
confidence in the bus network. There's nothing worse than waiting at a
stop for ages. I'd suggest factoring in these considerations when
weighing up such matters.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

"MIG" typed

It's a kind of passenger protest some of the time. "I don't care how
annoying it is to you to have a chorus of rings at every stop. Perhaps
if you generally stopped at bus stops you'd have a quieter ride."

Good point, well put.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not
requesting the stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in
Germany it has been necessary to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them,
and sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change
buses there, when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell
you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the
bus, and just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic
suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers
have stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus
ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that
on the approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is
absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is
nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger
the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail
and forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of
occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]?
This is where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly
surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Richard J. wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not
requesting the stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in
Germany it has been necessary to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them,
and sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change
buses there, when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell
you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the
bus, and just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic
suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers
have stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus
ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that
on the approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is
absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is
nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger
the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail
and forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of
occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]?
This is where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly
surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.



I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not
requesting the stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in
Germany it has been necessary to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them,
and sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change
buses there, when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell
you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the
bus, and just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic
suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers
have stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus
ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that
on the approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is
absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is
nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger
the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail
and forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of
occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]?
This is where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly
surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.



I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.



And almost immediately I find a bus map from 1981 with pictures of the
two types of stop and explanations as follows.

(White backgroud, red ring, black bar) "This is a 'compulsory' bus stop
where every bus on the route concerned will stop without being hailed.
At busy times it is quicker (and fairer) to form a queue."

(Red background, white ring and bar) "This is a 'request' bus stop
where the bus will only stop if you signal it to do so by waving your
arm or by ringing the bell once if you are already a passenger."

I always thought it was odd when my mother said "wave" but actually
she, and everyone else, simply stuck their arm out. That's not waving
really, is it?

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Richard J. wrote:

(snip)

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.

I demur. I was always under the impression that a compulsory stop meant
that technically speaking the bus should always stop, so theoretically
there's no need for passengers on board to ring the bell.

Also drivers often seem/seemed to adopt the practice of slowing down
for a compulsory stop, and if no passenger on board looks/looked like
they are/were going to get off (i.e. no one near the door or standing
up) and there is/was no-one at the bus stop then the driver will/would
just continue without stopping (the choices in tense for that past
paragraph reserves judgement to the reader as to whether such a
practice continues today! - I'd say the practice still happens some of
the time).

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

MIG wrote:

MIG wrote:

(snip)
I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.


And almost immediately I find a bus map from 1981 with pictures of the
two types of stop and explanations as follows.

(White backgroud, red ring, black bar) "This is a 'compulsory' bus stop
where every bus on the route concerned will stop without being hailed.
At busy times it is quicker (and fairer) to form a queue."

(Red background, white ring and bar) "This is a 'request' bus stop
where the bus will only stop if you signal it to do so by waving your
arm or by ringing the bell once if you are already a passenger."

I always thought it was odd when my mother said "wave" but actually
she, and everyone else, simply stuck their arm out. That's not waving
really, is it?


I remember such information being commonplace. However the only
contemporary mention I can find is in the notes accompanying the five
area bus maps (Central, NE, NW, SE & SW) and it only relates to night
buses. There is a picture of a red-backgrounded request stop
accompanying this text:

"All bus stops are treated as request stops between 0100 and 0430.
Additionally N-prefix night bus routes stop by request only at all
times. Please clearly signal to the driver when you wish to get on or
off the bus."

You can also find mention of when the system was introduced in 1935 in
this Designed for London education pack from the Transport Museum (page
30 [1]):

~~~~~
1935
'Fixed stop' system for buses introduced
First LT programme of compulsory and request bus stops started"
~~~~~

I'm not an expert on bus stops but I do know they're a surprisingly
late innovation - the above suggests as late as 1935, in London at
least. I don't know if someone else can flesh out the history of this a
bit.

Back to the present, I guess there is some argument for rolling out the
night bus rules to all buses - i.e. all stops are request stops. Given
that current TfL literature doesn't mention the two types of stops
(apart from with regards to night buses) perhaps things are just slowly
evolving that way anyway. Though I, like the others here, would of
course be interested to know what London Buses' policy or thinking
about this issue is, if any.


----------
[1] !Large PDF file!
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/TfL_educationpack.pdf

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

I've only witnessed this lack of courtesy at Finchley Road once, so perhaps
that was a one-off. And I don't use this interchange much. But I use the
Mile End one every day and it's getting increasingly on my goat.



BEFORE ANYONE LEAPS DOWN MY THROAT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO STICK TO
TIMETABLES ETC - I just wanted to say that IN THE PAST they waited, they
don't now (or they're less likely to do so now). That's all.

Sorry for being so indistinct. Probably didn't make a lot of sense there.
:-))
I can tell you why the Met and Jubilee no longer wait at Wembley Park,
the system of lights does not work, so the Met don't know that the
Jubillee train is there and vice versa, the system still works at
Finchley Road though.

Also this is a voluntary system, if we're running late we don't have too
wait.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

In message . 145,
Tristán White writes

I must say though that the courtesy between DLR trains at Poplar
(people going from Canary Wharf to Beckton and changing at Poplar) is
still alive and well and trains indeed wait. But no such courtesy
between District and Central any more.

That's because the system is drive by computer and the train is
generally held until the connecting one arrives. Nothing really to do
with being polite.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

1935
'Fixed stop' system for buses introduced
First LT programme of compulsory and request bus stops started"
~~~~~

I'm not an expert on bus stops but I do know they're a surprisingly
late innovation - the above suggests as late as 1935, in London at
least.

I think that reference is simply to the LPTB's policy to rationalise
(using the "roundel" logo as a brand) the bewildering variety of signs
inherited from their bus and tram predecessors.

Signs were not always used if the place to wait was fairly obvious, such
as outside a pub or railway station, but elsewhere there were
rectangular plates attached to lampposts, triangular signs, discs on
poles, elaborate wrought-iron contrivances and, in the early 30s,
"tombstone" shapes (rectangular lower half with curved top).
--
Paul Terry

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On 23 Jan 2007 06:40:49 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:


Mizter T wrote:
MIG wrote:

(snip)

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?


Have drivers been officially instructed to do that? I'm certain that
it's hasn't become official TfL policy to treat all stops at request
stops.

Well, I have it off the cuff from a bus driver, whose comment perfectly
matched my experience. I can't prove where the instructions come from,
but they certainly apply.

Interesting because exactly this subject is being debated on another
(non usenet) group. No such instruction has been issued by TfL although
apparently there is a review of the policy of compulsory and request
stops underway. This is to deal with exactly the issues being raised in
this thread. The basic position seems to be that passengers in a bus
will have to press the bell to indicate they wish to get off. Bus
drivers will have to pull in at stops where passengers are waiting in
the expectation that they wish to board. The distinction between
compulsory and request stops would be removed. Someone else mentioned
the need to make sure that at stops served by several routes (often the
case in London) *all* buses stop. I'm not convinced that this is really
covered by what has been suggested will be the new policy. I would
prefer bus stops to remain compulsory at such locations so that bus
drivers are not tempted to just drive past simply because they can't see
if anyone is waiting due to there being 3 buses (of other routes)
already at the stop.

I think it is entirely possible that bus companies have failed to point
out the difference between compulsory and request stops to their
drivers. There also appears to be no enforcement of the rules or
consequences for non compliance - no wonder people are confused as to
what to do.

I am also somewhat intrigued by your comments about there being only one
performance indicator for London Bus performance and that that it
relates to arrivals at the end of the routes. How did you come to that
understanding?

TfL publishes where it does it timing checks for each route and on my
local route the checks are most certainly not done at the extreme ends
of the route. Arriva's inspectors are not located at the end of the
route either.

There is an explanation of the bus performance statistics and how they
are compiled on the TfL website.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:32:16 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when trains
actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train across the
platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like Finchley
Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to Central) and vice
versa.
[snip]

BEFORE ANYONE LEAPS DOWN MY THROAT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO STICK TO
TIMETABLES ETC - I just wanted to say that IN THE PAST they waited, they
don't now (or they're less likely to do so now). That's all.

I have been using the Mile End interchange relatively frequently of late
and I have noticed trains on each line waiting for each other. I've
arrived on a District and the Central Line that was already there
waited. I've also observed for a few trains in a row as I waited for
the service I wanted.

You make the comment about timetables - I'm afraid this is a relevant
point here. The Central Line timetable is very finely balanced -
especially in the peaks so it's hard to justify extended dwell times
when you're running on 2 min headways.

The other issue is that the District and H&C have been through pretty
awful times in recent weeks. When there is disruption then there is less
opportunity to wait - especially if the service is being reformed to try
to get it back to timetable and to provide a better service for
everyone. I know you won't like this.

On the DLR the computers run the trains so that Stratford / Beckton
trains connect effortlessly at Poplar - very helpful and that shows you
what can be achieved with a modern and reliable system. It wasn't always
like that in the early days of the current signalling system!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

I am also somewhat intrigued by your comments about there being only one
performance indicator for London Bus performance and that that it
relates to arrivals at the end of the routes. How did you come to that
understanding?

TfL publishes where it does it timing checks for each route and on my
local route the checks are most certainly not done at the extreme ends
of the route. Arriva's inspectors are not located at the end of the
route either.

There is an explanation of the bus performance statistics and how they
are compiled on the TfL website.


I've wrongly used the word "end", and you've picked up on it. That
wasn't the emphasis I meant.

My point was that the arrival of an empty bus at any kind of checkpoint
isn't as important to me as whether or not I am actually able to make
my journey so that my body gets to where it is going on time.

To improve the "bus-getting-somewhere" statistics by cutting routes
short of popular destinations to avoid traffic, cutting routes even
shorter due to bendy buses potentially making the statistics worse and,
particularly, by not stopping at bus stops, TfL is harming my own
statistics for my body reaching its checkpoints when I travel by bus.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

On the DLR the computers run the trains so that Stratford / Beckton
trains connect effortlessly at Poplar - very helpful and that shows you
what can be achieved with a modern and reliable system. It wasn't always
like that in the early days of the current signalling system!

There may have been signalling but there wasn't much of a system!

The image of the DLR has changed so much. I remember it being
continually referred to as the 'Toytown Railway' in it's first few
halting years.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Mizter T wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

On the DLR the computers run the trains so that Stratford / Beckton
trains connect effortlessly at Poplar - very helpful and that shows you
what can be achieved with a modern and reliable system. It wasn't always
like that in the early days of the current signalling system!

There may have been signalling but there wasn't much of a system!

The image of the DLR has changed so much. I remember it being
continually referred to as the 'Toytown Railway' in it's first few
halting years.


I remember the first ever day of the DLR in ... about July 1987 was it?
We got a few hundred yards from Stratford and then got stuck for a
while. Everyone laughed. I remember thinking "I bet that's the last
time everyone will laugh when it breaks down".

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:32:16 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

I've noticed, in the past few weeks, a decrease in courtesy when
trains actually wait for passengers to leave the arriving train
across the platform.

Sorry, that made no sense did it? I'm talking about things like
Finchley Road (Metropolitan to Jubilee) and Mile End (District to
Central) and vice versa.
[snip]

BEFORE ANYONE LEAPS DOWN MY THROAT AND TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO STICK
TO TIMETABLES ETC - I just wanted to say that IN THE PAST they
waited, they don't now (or they're less likely to do so now).
That's all.

I have been using the Mile End interchange relatively frequently of
late and I have noticed trains on each line waiting for each other.
I've arrived on a District and the Central Line that was already
there waited. I've also observed for a few trains in a row as I
waited for the service I wanted.

You make the comment about timetables - I'm afraid this is a
relevant point here. The Central Line timetable is very finely
balanced - especially in the peaks so it's hard to justify extended
dwell times when you're running on 2 min headways.

I'd put it more strongly than that. If you have a peak service with 2
min (or less) headways, you MUST NOT have extended dwell times out of a
misplaced sense of courtesy. A longer dwell time at one station means
larger crowds at the next few stations which leads to enforced longer
dwell times which leads to larger crowds further on which leads to ...

.... the timetable in ruins! It always amazes me that there seems, on
the manually driven lines at any rate, to be little or no automated
assistance to the driver to keep to the timetable. The best way to deal
with crowded stations is to have a very regular frequency of trains, yet
apart from crude regulation at places like Hyde Park Corner, little is
actually done, as far as I can see, to ensure this. Indeed, scheduling
crew changes at places such as Earl's Court (District) without any
apparent monitoring of the process on the platform is sheer negligence
in my view, as it inevitably leads to erratic intervals.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:36:58 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

You make the comment about timetables - I'm afraid this is a
relevant point here. The Central Line timetable is very finely
balanced - especially in the peaks so it's hard to justify extended
dwell times when you're running on 2 min headways.

I'd put it more strongly than that. If you have a peak service with 2
min (or less) headways, you MUST NOT have extended dwell times out of a
misplaced sense of courtesy. A longer dwell time at one station means
larger crowds at the next few stations which leads to enforced longer
dwell times which leads to larger crowds further on which leads to ...

... the timetable in ruins! It always amazes me that there seems, on
the manually driven lines at any rate, to be little or no automated
assistance to the driver to keep to the timetable. The best way to deal
with crowded stations is to have a very regular frequency of trains, yet
apart from crude regulation at places like Hyde Park Corner, little is
actually done, as far as I can see, to ensure this. Indeed, scheduling
crew changes at places such as Earl's Court (District) without any
apparent monitoring of the process on the platform is sheer negligence
in my view, as it inevitably leads to erratic intervals.

I would agree with your comments about longer dwell times but they are
an irrelevance to the vast majority of passengers. They just want the
most convenient journey possible - which is what the OP is clearly
driving at. While I fully understand why the travelling public are not
concerned with the minutiae that makes the Underground work it does not
take very much at all to tip things over. I don't know how we can
effectively educate our passengers so that they don't do the things that
can cause the "tip over" effect. The counterbalance is to make sure the
assets all work properly.

As you say the most important thing is to keep pushing trains down the
line at frequent intervals with as few perturbations to the service as
possible. The simple fact is that most lines have very old signalling
and control systems that are a very long away from the best modern
systems. There are additional aids and information sources that have
been "added on" to help with train dispatch and changeovers but it's not
state of the art nor is it fully integrated to allow line controllers /
duty managers to effect the most sensible solutions very quickly. I
don't know if there is something at Earls Court to assist with District
Line changeovers.

Nonetheless there is a huge wealth of experience and knowledge that
allows service recovery to happen faster these days than it used to do
(in most cases). Some lines have much more trouble with recovery -
Northern and Piccadilly being two that spring to mind all too readily. I
only hope that the new systems being installed as part of the line
upgrades deliver the right combination of high reliability, extra
capacity and the "tool kit" for controllers to restore the train system
quickly and efficiently if things go wrong.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

On 23 Jan 2007 01:53:26 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

There have historically been white (compulsory) bus stops and red
(request) bus stops in London. There still are. Children are taught
by their parents that they have to stick their arm out or ring the bell
to get on or off at a red bus stop.

At a white stop, you shouldn't need to. That's not laziness.

Now that drivers have been instructed to treat all stops as request
stops, why doesn't TfL make them all red to save confusion?

Or make them all white and let it be known that all stops are now
request stops.

I would suggest that the vast majority of the bus-travelling public in
London already treats all bus stops as request stops.

Trains no longer waiting for pulling-up train
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

I am also somewhat intrigued by your comments about there being only one
performance indicator for London Bus performance and that that it
relates to arrivals at the end of the routes. How did you come to that
understanding?

TfL publishes where it does it timing checks for each route and on my
local route the checks are most certainly not done at the extreme ends
of the route. Arriva's inspectors are not located at the end of the
route either.

The trouble with my usual local route (the W6) is that the measuring
points *are* at the terminals, but as the monitoring doesn't take place
from first bus to last bus and the drivers know when they're being
monitored, it produces results that bear very little resemblance to reality.

After about 21:00, the frequency drops to half hourly and it's not
unusual for buses to leave 2 or 3 minutes early, and to get to the other
end of the route 5 minutes early, yet when you complain to TfL Buses
about it they just send a standard fob off letter giving the usual
excuses of traffic, bunching, and statistics, and don't actually *do*
anything.

The most extreme example I've experienced was when I was coming back
from work one day. I got the 22:40 299 from Muswell Hill Broadway, with
the intention of catching the 23:00 W6 from Southgate. As it was around
22:55 when we got to Ye Olde Cherry Tree, I got off the 299 there and
had just crossed the road and was walking back to the W6 stop when it
shot past me, before it was even due to leave Southgate Station, and I
had to wait nigh on 40 minutes for the last bus of the night.

Cheers,

Barry