A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single
to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street
and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was
invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10.

He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that
the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.)
No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to
pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from
Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling
from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or
£3.10 - take your pick, he was told!

He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from
another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that
person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his
fare!

He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take
it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this
is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid
by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the
new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his
journey, including the underground.

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my
assumption correct?

Terry

On Feb 25, 2:20 pm, "Terry Casey" wrote:

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my
assumption correct?

Terry

But you can't get to Southall by underground! So unless the inspector
was saying your friend should have taken the bus from Ealing Broadway
he seems to have been spouting nonsense. I don't think it's 'one's'
fault.

On Feb 25, 2:34�pm, wrote:
On Feb 25, 2:20 pm, "Terry Casey" wrote:

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my
assumption correct?

Terry

But you can't get to Southall by underground! So unless the inspector
was saying your friend should have taken the bus from Ealing Broadway
he seems to have been spouting nonsense. I don't think it's 'one's'
fault.

It depends what was asked for. If he asked for "a single to Southall"
at Goodmayes, the ticket should have said "From GOODMAYES To SOUTHALL
Route + Any Permitted", and would have cost �5.10. If the final
destination is an NR station then the actual station (or, occasionally
station group, eg Croydon) must be shown on the ticket. What the
purchaser was sold was a ticket to U1234, ie from Goodmayes to a final
destination on the Underground in zone 4, involving an Underground
journey through zones 1-4, for example Goodmayes to Perivale. Since
the introduction of Zonal fares, the cost is the same, but the
validity is different. FGW do not get any money from the U1234
ticket, so, quite rightly, they refused the ticket.

As I don't know what exactly was asked for, although the OP did say
the words "Underground" and "Zone 4" were mentioned, it's difficult to
know who was at fault. I suspect, however, that the booking clerk, on
hearing the words "Southall in Zone 4", assumed that Southall was on
the Underground and sold that ticket.

Incidentally, if it was after 0930, a zone 1-4 ODTC at �5.70 may have
been a better value option.

Moral of the story: Keep it simple. If you want a single to Southall,
say so. Don't confuse matters by mentioning zones or the
Underground. If an Underground transfer is required, the ticket
issuing system will know this.

Ken

"Ken" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 25, 2:34?pm, wrote:
As I don't know what exactly was asked for, although the OP did say
the words "Underground" and "Zone 4" were mentioned, it's difficult to
know who was at fault. I suspect, however, that the booking clerk, on
hearing the words "Southall in Zone 4", assumed that Southall was on
the Underground and sold that ticket.

Incidentally, if it was after 0930, a zone 1-4 ODTC at ?5.70 may have
been a better value option.

Moral of the story: Keep it simple. If you want a single to Southall,
say so. Don't confuse matters by mentioning zones or the
Underground. If an Underground transfer is required, the ticket
issuing system will know this.

Ken
------------------------------

My friend asked for a single to Southall, nothing more (at 0720).

It was the inspector at Southall who first used the word "Underground" and
only then did my friend refer to the zones printed on the ticket, so there
was no customer confusion at the Goodmayes end!

Terry

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:20:00 GMT, "Terry Casey"
wrote:

A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single
to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool Street
and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was
invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10.

He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out that
the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.)
No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to
pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from
Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling
from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or
£3.10 - take your pick, he was told!

He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment from
another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that
person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his
fare!

He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to take
it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this
is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234, valid
by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the
new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his
journey, including the underground.

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my
assumption correct?

Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would
say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong
ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b"
which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not
U1234. This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

I think the FGW ticket person did the right thing (in terms of
challenging the incorrectly issued ticket) based on the ticket
description but was obviously not prepared to listen or show any
discretion or even call up Goodmayes to ask if they had issued the
ticket in question.

I think the complaint goes to "one" re ticket issuing error and possibly
to FGW if your friend considers his treatment to be rude or ill
mannered. I'm not sure either company comes out of this very well. I
also suspect the training on how to issue these revised tickets is not
what it should be but then the whole thing is a complex nightmare - I
could never do the job of a NR booking clerk.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would
say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong
ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b"
which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not
U1234.

After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same
impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets
are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only
valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station.

This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I
reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool
Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden.

(Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the
ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not
be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route
also has to be "reasonable".)

However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g.
Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and
the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to
the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to
Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there).

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:17:16 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would
say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong
ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b"
which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not
U1234.

After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same
impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets
are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only
valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station.

Having read the NFM details I'm sure I am correct.

This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I
reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool
Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden.

Sorry but I think you are wrong with this example. Victoria to Balham is
not interavailable so is in effect another TOC journey. I doubt very
much that the ticket would work the gates on the interchange at Victoria
or at Balham.

I appreciate the NFM cites the above link in an example but only for
tickets issued from London Terminals to U1234 - this is fine as it
covers Southern to Balham and then a continuation on LU to Morden.

A ticket purchaser would have to decide whether they wished to use NR
and then only LU to reach Balham or else buy a ticket from their origin
to Balham (NR) and then rebook to Morden. Other than a One Day
Travelcard I do not think there is a ticket that allows NR - LU - NR -
LU as a set of journey legs where the NR legs are not interavailable
with a LU service.

(Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the
ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not
be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route
also has to be "reasonable".)

The rules say "any permitted" route but subject to the differing basic
availabilities of NR Zonal and Train Tube Zonal products.

However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g.
Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and
the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to
the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to
Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there).

You'd be restricted to the TfL rail network within the zones requested
on your ticket. The NFM extract also says you could effectively ask for
a London terminals to "U" combination where there was not a through fare
to "U" defined in the ticketing system.

I think I'm glad I'm not a booking clerk!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:13:34 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I
reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool
Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden.

Sorry but I think you are wrong with this example. Victoria to Balham is
not interavailable so is in effect another TOC journey.

Yes, I deliberately chose an example that was not interavailable.

A ticket purchaser would have to decide whether they wished to use NR
and then only LU to reach Balham or else buy a ticket from their origin
to Balham (NR) and then rebook to Morden. Other than a One Day
Travelcard I do not think there is a ticket that allows NR - LU - NR -
LU as a set of journey legs where the NR legs are not interavailable
with a LU service.

OK, I couldn't see any reason why you couldn't do NR-LU-NR-LU within
the zones on your ticket, but I suppose it doesn't explicitly say you
*can* either, so you'd be taking your chances with what the RPIs would
accept.

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a single
to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool
Street
and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was
invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10.

He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out
that
the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone 4.)
No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have to
pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from
Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling
from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20 or
£3.10 - take your pick, he was told!

He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment
from
another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that
person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his
fare!

He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to
take
it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that this
is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234,
valid
by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of the
new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his
journey, including the underground.

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on
the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for
the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is my
assumption correct?

The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS
Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground
stations in zone 4.

So it seems that One sold the cheaper ticket at the more expensive price for
some reason and they are at fault (although FGW probably should have given
your friend the benefit of the doubt).

Peter Smyth

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
A friend went to Goodmayes station on Friday morning and asked for a
single
to Southall, for which he was charged £5.10. He set off via Liverpool
Street
and Paddington but when he got to Southall he was told his ticket was
invalid and he would have to pay again - £3.10.

He explained that he had asked for a ticket to Southall and pointed out
that
the ticket included zone 4 (both Goodmayes and Southall being in zone
4.)
No, he was told, it was only valid on the underground and he would have
to
pay again - £3.10 please! In that case, he asked, could he just pay from
Ealing Broadway and was told that, as he had already admitted travelling
from Paddington, the suggestion could trigger a £20 penalty charge! £20
or
£3.10 - take your pick, he was told!

He elected for the £3.10 option and, to add insult to injury, a comment
from
another passenger as he left the station made it clear that, in that
person's eyes at least, he had been caught for fraudulently evading his
fare!

He is understandably livid and, when he told me about it, was going to
take
it up with 'one', who issued the ticket. However, I am not sure that
this
is the right way to go. His ticket is a Standard Day Single to U1234,
valid
by any available route and, on checking the NR website for details of
the
new zonal fare structure, I note that £5.10 is the correct fare for his
journey, including the underground.

I am assuming that the U in U1234 means that the ticket is also valid on
the
underground (to differentiate it from the £3.10 ticket which isn't) but,
presumably, at Southall it is taken to mean that it is ONLY valid on the
underground!

Unless there is a way that he could have been sold the wrong ticket for
the
correct fare at Goodmayes, I feel he has been the victim of First Great
Western incompetence and that it is to FGW that he should complain. Is
my
assumption correct?

The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS
Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground
stations in zone 4.

So it seems that One sold the cheaper ticket at the more expensive price
for
some reason and they are at fault (although FGW probably should have given
your friend the benefit of the doubt).

Peter Smyth

I took the details off the ticket itself and it definitely shows the price
as £5.10 - surely it would be impossible to issue the wrong ticket at the
correct price (unless there is a software problem or programming error.)

Terry