North London Line Revisited
 

Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily
basis.

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

On 15 Mar, 19:14, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily
basis.

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

--
Edward Cowling London UK


A splendid little snippet there of life on the NLL, where gong from A
to B is always a journey!

Off-peak the NLL is busy, but from my experience at peak times it is
perhaps a little harder to take it all lightly - that said, it can get
so packed laughing at the absurdity is perhaps the best remedy. I've
several friends on the line who would use it for their daily commutes
but for the fact it is so packed, so they find other ways to get to
work and back.

I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I've seen your comments regarding buses before and I do quite disagree
with you, but I don't want to get this thread sidetracked (I'll leave
it for another time). But two quick points on that...

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

(2) railways are so much more expensive than buses - diverting funding
away from the buses would only make a minor impact

TfL is to take control of the NLL (and other lines) in November - new
trains are on order for delivery in 2009, though they are only three
car too but should hopefully use the space a bit better. Upgrading
some of the stations to take longer trains is however a big job and
one that will need funds from central government - TfL could not do it
off it's own back.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

North London Line Revisited
 

In message om, Mizter
T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus despite it
being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an accident
waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and enlarging
the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of transport
improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even God hasn't seen
before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them !


I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message om,
Mizter T writes


I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the
strain whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car
driver clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus
despite it being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an
accident waiting to happen.

(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers
on journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of
the strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I
think TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before
they start making demands for more money from the government - I'm
sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are
aware of the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as
we speak.
Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

New trains ordered August 2006. Also see:
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/projec...ceImprovements

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=886

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work off
to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just aren't
catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they aren't
prepared for it.

Mind you aren't the Venezuelans taking pity on poor old third world
London and helping out with a few bob ? :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

On 15 Mar, 20:49, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:
In message om,
Mizter T writes

I've personally no objection to people using the NLL to lug stuff
around, off-peak - after all they're letting the train take the strain
whereas otherwise they might be another car owner or car driver
clogging the roads up. Let the frontier spirit continue!

I don't travel on it off peak, all my experiences are between
8 and 9 in the morning and 5.30 to 7(ish) of an evening. The
guys with the flat packs were on already crowded trains. Plus despite it
being Eco friendly the mix of flesh and push bikes is an accident
waiting to happen.

Agreed - it would be better for people to avoid bringing loads of
stuff on at peak times, though I suppose that some people's busy lives
could make it difficult to avoid.

Bikes definitely shouldn't be allowed on at peak times - and I speak
not as a bicycle hater but as a keen cyclist - when it's busy the
space available should be for people! Bizarrely I note that Silverlink
don't appear to have any policy banning bikes on the NLL at peak times
[1], which is pretty silly.


(1) the buses are probably already carrying a number of passengers on
journeys that could be done on the NLL, thus relieving a bit of the
strain on the route

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and enlarging
the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of transport
improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even God hasn't seen
before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them !

Please understand that the following comment isn't me trying to be
belligerent, it really isn't, but if someone is paying £2 for a bus
fare on more than a few occasions then they're being a bit of a mug.
£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

And they really have improved significantly - a significant
improvement that was much needed, and as the rising passenger numbers
suggest that it has been much appreciated.

Buses are of course only one part the transport mix - in a way they
are a quick win, improving rail services (both under and overground
ones) is a much harder ask. However so far I've been fairly impressed
with the Mayor's efforst on both these fronts, given the limitations
he has - the PPP was unwillingly foisted upon him, and the Mayor only
has limited powers with regards to overground rail - but he's pushed
hard to get involved anyway, and has funded improvements all over
London to stations and will be taking direct control of the NLL and
other passenger services come November.

Also bear in mind that the bulk of TfL's funding doesn't come from the
Congestion Charge, nor from the GLA's council tax levy, but from a
grant from central government.


I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.

Will the public be that patient and understanding ? Or will it be an
acolyte of Mr Cameron trying to sort the mess out ?

Ha! Mr Cameron's Mayor Idol style selection process didn't appear to
be a great success did it. We shall see, though at present I find it
hard to see the winner of the next Mayoral election wearing a blue
rosette, though of course the voters might be up for a change from Ken
next time. Of course it's not unfeasible for a future successful
candidate to be an independent, or at least allied to neither of the
two parties - after all that's what happened the first time round! I'd
still put my money on Ken winning it again though - my half baked and
completely unoriginal theory is that his objectors make a lot of
noise, whilst his supporters are far quieter - his rebelliousness and
outsider status appeal to many Londoners.

The really interesting potential future development is what will
happen when the Mayor and the central government are of a different
political hue - for example a Cameron government and a Mayor Ken.
There's an awful lot of interplay between central government and the
Mayor/GLA, not least in terms of flows of money. However I'd say it
would be unlikely that a Cameron government would squeeze TfL's grant
significantly in anything like a similar manner to how Thatcher
squeezed the GLC.

Going back to your point as to whether the public will be
understanding - bear in mind that the Mayor has no real power over the
NLL at this point in time anyway. Direct control starts in November. I
imagine that improvements will be seen pretty quickly, and over time
the Mayor will make clear that he is fighting for a better deal for
NLL passengers by trying to get extra funding from the government for
major NLL improvements.

Of course in a sense this is in part a mess of Livingstone's own
making - but one he might even be proud of. In the 1980's the GLC,
under Ken, pushed for better utilisation of rail routes around Greater
London, at the time of course all under the control of British Rail.
One of the GLC's pet projects, to which they committed funding, was
the creation of the present day North London Line - of course it's not
a new railway, but the through orbital passenger service from
Stratford to Richmond was a new creation. This created the modern day
NLL, the very NLL that is now a victim of its own success.


-----
[1] Silverlink Cycle Policy
http://www.silverlink-trains.com/tem...ic.aspx?id=489

North London Line Revisited
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ps.com...

TfL is to take control of the NLL (and other lines) in November - new
trains are on order for delivery in 2009, though they are only three
car too but should hopefully use the space a bit better. Upgrading
some of the stations to take longer trains is however a big job and
one that will need funds from central government - TfL could not do it
off it's own back.

I absolutely agree that it looks like it needs to be done, but I think
TfL will want to get their feet under the table first before they
start making demands for more money from the government - I'm sure
this explains the silence on this issue from TfL so far. Be certain
though that the bods at TfL Rail - and indeed the Mayor - are aware of
the state of the NLL, and are laying out their plans as we speak.


I feel there is a real risk that the shiny new trains will attract even more
new passengers than they have space for - its a pity the planned service
frequency increases can't be guaranteed to be delivered at the same time as
the trains...

Paul

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience. I did travel on it from Highbury and Islington to
Gunnersbury in the early 90, when it was affectionately known as the
hair lip and club foot line. But nothing really prepares you for it in
2007.

Firstly there is the stuff people take on it. I'm not talking about the
rucksack with all their worldly goods that people in their 20's seem
obliged by law to carry everywhere. We're talking truly weird stuff. The
sort of stuff that makes the guy who went round Ireland with a fridge
look like an amateur.

1. Two guys with the best part of a flat packed bedroom. They had four
boxes so big they had to tilt them to get them on. There is a kind of
frontier express spirit on the NLL, so people actually helped them get
it all on board.
2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.
3. A guy with a bamboo summer house in bits.
4. Bikes of all shapes and sizes jammed into soft knees and shins.
Despite the frontier express spirit I do worry about the health and
safety aspect of so much rusty metal packed onto a crowded train. A
minor accident could lead to lots of broken bones.

It has to be said the people on the NLL could teach City Gents a thing
or two about manners and tolerance and all this is treated with a smile.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

If you think your line is congested, or your journey is bad. Travel on
the NLL for a few days. You'll meet some of the nicest people you could
hope to meet, who are subjected to intolerable conditions on a daily basis.

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

So come on Ken, if you want a third term, give London some decent
transport. Filling the roads with busses isn't good enough.

There are significant improvements planned for the North London Line, I
can assure you. The only problem is the time it takes to implement the
plans.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message ,
Richard J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on
them !

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't
the solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of
work off to the odd interview,

Ah, yes, the mythical scenario where the unemployed person goes to only
one interview and never makes any other journeys by bus. I don't believe
it.

granny on a special trip

Between 04:30 and 09:00? (It's free with her Freedom Pass at other
times!)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.

Loot Rail!

North London Line Revisited
 

In article ,
John Rowland wrote:
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.

Loot Rail!

ITYM LOOT Rail ;-)

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/blosxom ... So express yourself

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard J.
writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work off
to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just aren't
catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they aren't
prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ? Are you aware where you
buy it ? How about New York, or maybe Moscow ?

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

Bikes definitely shouldn't be allowed on at peak times - and I speak
not as a bicycle hater but as a keen cyclist - when it's busy the
space available should be for people! Bizarrely I note that Silverlink
don't appear to have any policy banning bikes on the NLL at peak times
[1], which is pretty silly.

Yes. You can just see a fairly minor shunt somewhere leaving a lot of
people with handlebar size holes in vital areas. Then of course Silver
Link will be saying, "we had no idea, if only we'd been aware of the
problem."


Please understand that the following comment isn't me trying to be
belligerent, it really isn't, but if someone is paying £2 for a bus
fare on more than a few occasions then they're being a bit of a mug.
£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

After a long ponder on this I came to the conclusion that charging
double for those paying cash is not only probably illegal if someone
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft for
a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes I am
sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)


Also bear in mind that the bulk of TfL's funding doesn't come from the
Congestion Charge, nor from the GLA's council tax levy, but from a
grant from central government.

I just got my Council Tax and I'm paying Ken about 450 quid this year.
(GLA part of my bill). So I'm determined to moan and groan about all his
many failings. :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , Paul Scott
writes


I feel there is a real risk that the shiny new trains will attract even more
new passengers than they have space for - its a pity the planned service
frequency increases can't be guaranteed to be delivered at the same time as
the trains...

Ok, my two pennorth on how to improve the NLL.

1. Get the stations manned ! That will give control over the fare
dodgers who seem to think the service is free. It will also give more
control of the huge amount of haulage that goes on. Plus it will get rid
of the impression that no one is in charge of it.

2. Get longer trains now. Not in 5 or 7 years but make it a priority to
get the platforms enlarged and get the 4 carriage trains within the year
and extend to 6 carriages by 2012.

3. Get all the mile long goods trains to run at night. No exceptions.
During the day it's for carrying Londoners, not bags of cement.

4. Get the staff trained in how to deal with the public. I see the
problems the Tube got rid of years ago. Not a huge moan about obviously
tired and harassed staff.... they just need training.

Ok, that'll do for starters :-)

--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , Dave A
writes

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

Plus the platform is constricted. So you get crowds on the platform with
nowhere to go, to get out of the way for people getting off trains. It's
a recipe for trouble and you see police there nearly every night.

Surely clearing the various sheds and god knows what off the platform
shouldn't be beyond Silverlink ? Or I think Drosslink suits them
better.


--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , John Rowland
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.

Loot Rail!


He had a Camberwell carrot on the go and was talking to himself, so no
one had the courage to ask :-)


--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In article ,
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , John Rowland
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

2. A guy on his own with a large and very old 26 inch TV.

Loot Rail!


He had a Camberwell carrot on the go and was talking to himself, so no
one had the courage to ask :-)

Not even to ask him for a drag ? :-)

Nick
--
http://www.leverton.org/blosxom ... So express yourself

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

Ok, my two pennorth on how to improve the NLL.

1. Get the stations manned ! That will give control over the fare dodgers
who seem to think the service is free. It will also give more control of
the huge amount of haulage that goes on. Plus it will get rid of the
impression that no one is in charge of it.

Agree.

2. Get longer trains now. Not in 5 or 7 years but make it a priority to
get the platforms enlarged and get the 4 carriage trains within the year
and extend to 6 carriages by 2012.

Good idea but... Some stations could have the platforms easily lengthened by
bringing back into service the extremes. Others can't - you're looking at
stations in cuttings or on embankments/viaducts where a lot of demolition
and construction would be needed, with all the planning permissions and
other hassles that involves.

3. Get all the mile long goods trains to run at night. No exceptions.
During the day it's for carrying Londoners, not bags of cement.

Yes but there's not much time at night and then the freight has to run on
other lines as well. How about that freight link bypass for London that's
been proposed on this group?

4. Get the staff trained in how to deal with the public. I see the
problems the Tube got rid of years ago. Not a huge moan about obviously
tired and harassed staff.... they just need training.

No comment - I either hardly ever see staff or the main stations I use
(Stratford, Highbury & Islington, Richmond) have other company staff so it's
hard to know who's who.

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at
Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ? Are you aware where you
buy it ? How about New York, or maybe Moscow ?

See my sig. I live in New York. (I visited London the past two summers.)

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

It's always a good idea to do a bit of research before traveling.

Still, for those who haven't done research, Oyster is advertised all
over the place, and the ads make it quite clear that Oyster fares are
cheaper than cash fares.

Perhaps the solution is to stop offering individual tickets entirely. I
wouldn't be surprised if that's the ultimate plan. New York gave up its
traditional tokens in 2002 or 2003.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

You like to stand in line to buy a ticket each time you travel?

You like to have to pay extension fares in advance, once per trip?

You don't see the value in daily capping?

You don't see the vastly reduced costs in cash collection?

Oyster may not be perfect but it's a lot better than what you'll find in
most cities.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

North London Line Revisited
 

On Mar 16, 2:08 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

Ok, my two pennorth on how to improve the NLL.
1. Get the stations manned ! That will give control over the fare dodgers
who seem to think the service is free. It will also give more control of
the huge amount of haulage that goes on. Plus it will get rid of the
impression that no one is in charge of it.

Agree.

2. Get longer trains now. Not in 5 or 7 years but make it a priority to
get the platforms enlarged and get the 4 carriage trains within the year
and extend to 6 carriages by 2012.

Good idea but... Some stations could have the platforms easily lengthened by
bringing back into service the extremes. Others can't - you're looking at
stations in cuttings or on embankments/viaducts where a lot of demolition
and construction would be needed, with all the planning permissions and
other hassles that involves.

3. Get all the mile long goods trains to run at night. No exceptions.
During the day it's for carrying Londoners, not bags of cement.

Yes but there's not much time at night and then the freight has to run on
other lines as well. How about that freight link bypass for London that's
been proposed on this group?

4. Get the staff trained in how to deal with the public. I see the
problems the Tube got rid of years ago. Not a huge moan about obviously
tired and harassed staff.... they just need training.

No comment - I either hardly ever see staff or the main stations I use
(Stratford, Highbury & Islington, Richmond) have other company staff so it's
hard to know who's who.

Strangely the freight bypass has, in part, recently been mentioned in
a RUS. Unfortunately not the part that would really help the NLL.

The recent freight RUS has suggested that re-
opening of the Oxford, Claydon, Bletchley line could offer a
preferable Up routeing option for Southampton container services.

Unfortunately for the NLL it the Felixstowe container trafic that is,
in part, clogging the NLL. To divert that we need the Bletchly,
Cambridge section, plus some!

Adrian

North London Line Revisited
 

On Mar 16, 9:35 pm, "Adrian" wrote:

Unfortunately for the NLL it the Felixstowe container trafic that is,
in part, clogging the NLL. To divert that we need the Bletchly,
Cambridge section, plus some!

Not really - Ipswich-Peterborough would do (widening and
electrification, please).

North London Line Revisited
 

"Adrian" wrote in message
ups.com...


Strangely the freight bypass has, in part, recently been mentioned in
a RUS. Unfortunately not the part that would really help the NLL.

The recent freight RUS has suggested that re-
opening of the Oxford, Claydon, Bletchley line could offer a
preferable Up routeing option for Southampton container services.


This proposal in the Freight RUS has nothing to do with the London area. Its
to do avoiding with the flat crossing currently required at Nuneaton, where
trains have to cross 3 of the 4 WCML tracks on their way to Coventry,
eventually to gain the Cherwell valley route to Oxford, Reading and
Basingstoke, thence Southampton.

Paul

North London Line Revisited
 

On Mar 16, 3:09 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message

ups.com...



Strangely the freight bypass has, in part, recently been mentioned in
a RUS. Unfortunately not the part that would really help the NLL.

The recent freight RUS has suggested that re-
opening of the Oxford, Claydon, Bletchley line could offer a
preferable Up routeing option for Southampton container services.

This proposal in the Freight RUS has nothing to do with the London area. Its
to do avoiding with the flat crossing currently required at Nuneaton, where
trains have to cross 3 of the 4 WCML tracks on their way to Coventry,
eventually to gain the Cherwell valley route to Oxford, Reading and
Basingstoke, thence Southampton.

Paul

Understood, however, it just happens to use part of the freight bypass
discussed here.

Adrian

North London Line Revisited
 

TimB wrote:
On Mar 16, 9:35 pm, "Adrian" wrote:

Unfortunately for the NLL it the Felixstowe container trafic that is,
in part, clogging the NLL. To divert that we need the Bletchly,
Cambridge section, plus some!

Not really - Ipswich-Peterborough would do (widening and
electrification, please).

Part of the problem is the number of larger containers that are currently
only passed for the route via the NLL. IIRC Hutchinson Ports have already
offered to contribute towards gauge enhancements on the Ipswich to
Peterborough route, to allow trains to run that way.

North London Line Revisited
 

On Mar 16, 10:20 pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
plus some!

Not really - Ipswich-Peterborough would do (widening and
electrification, please).

Part of the problem is the number of larger containers that are currently
only passed for the route via the NLL. IIRC Hutchinson Ports have already
offered to contribute towards gauge enhancements on the Ipswich to
Peterborough route, to allow trains to run that way.

Which is what I meant by widening. The sooner the better!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:06:34 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , David of Broadway
writes
Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message , Richard
J. writes

The problem is that despite raising the congestion charge and
enlarging the area, all most of us can see from Ken in the way of
transport improvement is buses.... buses the numbers of which even
God hasn't seen before :-) Then Ken made it 2 quid to get on them
!

Don't be silly; it's £1 with Oyster.

I know it's away from the thread, but I really think Oyster isn't the
solution for many people who Ken should be helping. The out of work
off to the odd interview, granny on a special trip.... they just
aren't catered for, and of course it can hit tourists hard if they
aren't prepared for it.

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Can you name the Paris Metro similar system ?

Please note these responses are from memory and I have not checked
websites.

Mobilis is the day ticket. Carnet is for more occasional users. They
have not yet implemented a PAYG system but seasons are on Smartcard. If
you want to be ripped off you can buy a Paris Visite - just like the way
we used to rip off tourists with Visitor Travelcards. I don't recall
people howling about how unfair that was and how discriminatory it was
given the accusations placed against Oyster.

Are you aware where you
buy it ?

Every SNCF and RATP station in Paris system will sell a Mobilis, every
RATP station will sell a Carnet and you can buy Paris Visite at Waterloo
Eurostar if you want. You used to be able to buy on the train but I
think that's been stopped now.

How about New York,

Metrocard - either in a PAYG type format but with an effective %
discount or unlimited rides over a fixed time period. All Subway
stations with a manned ticket booth sell them as a minimum. There may be
other outlets but it's been years since I've been to NYC. until the
yanks stop treating all visitors as potential criminals and terrorists
it will be a long time before I visit again despite the fact I love the
city.

or maybe Moscow ?

Never been and never checked. From memory there used to be tokens in
use but I understand a smartcard system has been installed on the Moscow
Metro. Representatives came across to see London's early smartcard
trials at Harrow and were very impressed.

Singapore is the EZ Pass and I have one in my wallet.

Hong Kong is Octopus and I held one of those cards for years and years
until the card regrettably failed on my penultimate journey on my last
visit there.

None of this is remotely difficult to deal with or understand. Just
about every guide book I have ever bought has a decent section on local
public transport and tickets and my Rough Guide to London (2003 edition
so before Oyster) has a good, clear explanation of ticketing options
available then. I imagine it deals with Oyster in the same way in the
latest edition.

I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

As Mr Jelf will vouch a great many tourists are so terrified by the mere
thought of going anywhere by public transport that they never travel by
tube or by bus. Personally I think they are missing out hugely but
obviously you are routinely raped, attacked and assaulted every time you
go within ½ a mile of a bus stop or tube platform ;-)

As for the rest many people are in possession of brains and do suitable
research in advance of arrival - as I do when I visit somewhere else.
This group provides a decent amount of informal advice on exactly this
subject.

TfL are taking additional steps to improve the availability of Oyster
based travel to visitors and I'm sure it will be just as good as it was
when the old network of agents were tasked with flogging overpriced
Visitor Travelcards.

Usually my first purchase on arrival is a ride at will ticket that gives
me freedom and flexibility to go as I please. I have never encountered
a problem with doing this anywhere in the world.

Ken needs to stop inflating cash paid fares and return to the old system
that worked well since.... well forever !

Which is simply not going to happen. There will be no return to the old
system although I imagine differentials may moderate once Oyster is
available on all modes across all of London and take up rates on Oyster
are very high.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:22:02 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Paul Scott
writes


I feel there is a real risk that the shiny new trains will attract even more
new passengers than they have space for - its a pity the planned service
frequency increases can't be guaranteed to be delivered at the same time as
the trains...

Ok, my two pennorth on how to improve the NLL.

1. Get the stations manned ! That will give control over the fare
dodgers who seem to think the service is free. It will also give more
control of the huge amount of haulage that goes on. Plus it will get rid
of the impression that no one is in charge of it.

TfL will fix this.

2. Get longer trains now. Not in 5 or 7 years but make it a priority to
get the platforms enlarged and get the 4 carriage trains within the year
and extend to 6 carriages by 2012.

To be fair this is not achieveable in the short timescale you specify.
Whether we like it or not getting new and longer trains into service
takes time for a pile of good reasons even if the public might not like
or understand those reasons.

3. Get all the mile long goods trains to run at night. No exceptions.
During the day it's for carrying Londoners, not bags of cement.

If you were to insist on this then it is likely the cement will go by
lorry and wreck London's streets. I take the point but rail freight
customers do have access rights under the NR regime so they have an
entitlement to daytime paths that is protected under rail regulation.

I would prefer that there was a policy to provide additional track,
siding and signalling capacity to correctly cater for passenger and
freight traffic in the most effective manner to meet both sets of needs.

4. Get the staff trained in how to deal with the public. I see the
problems the Tube got rid of years ago. Not a huge moan about obviously
tired and harassed staff.... they just need training.

I am sure TfL and their concessionaire will do that too.

Ok, that'll do for starters :-)

I expected a longer list.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:11:35 +0000, Dave A wrote:

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

I have to say I was a bit surprised to read both of these comments. They
are rather revealing though. I am now somewhat intrigued and may well
toddle along sometime to take a look at just how awful it is. I shall
try to stay in a place where I am not in the way though!

If it is like this now I cannot imagine what will happen when
improvements to the overall service start being delivered and suppressed
demand starts to be unlocked - it'll be (even more) awful! That's a
very real challenge for whoever will be running the service. LU will be
taking over the operation of those platforms / station buildings come
November so there the local staff will have all that to deal with.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

David of Broadway wrote

Prepared for what? I had no trouble obtaining an Oyster card at
Heathrow.

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or
ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Me me me (I live near but outside the zones on a NR line).

And for me a paper one day travel card was better value and now I have
a railcard, even better value.

Things may be different in 2009 (SWT's date for Oyster launch according
to their free mag)

--
Mike D

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote

£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

After a long ponder on this I came to the conclusion that charging
double for those paying cash is not only probably illegal if someone
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for
a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes I
am
sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

I expect Red Ken will organise day release classes for working people
who are too dim to understand Oyster.

It is not illegal for almost any business to refuse cash since legal
tender is an odder concept than you might think. No one has to accept
pounds unless there is a pre-existing debt (so restaurants but not
ordinary stores, penalty fares but not ordinary fares) and no one is
legally obliged to give change.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm

--
Mike D

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message .com,
Mizter T writes

Bikes definitely shouldn't be allowed on at peak times - and I speak
not as a bicycle hater but as a keen cyclist - when it's busy the
space available should be for people! Bizarrely I note that Silverlink
don't appear to have any policy banning bikes on the NLL at peak times
[1], which is pretty silly.

Yes. You can just see a fairly minor shunt somewhere leaving a lot of
people with handlebar size holes in vital areas. Then of course Silver
Link will be saying, "we had no idea, if only we'd been aware of the
problem."


Please understand that the following comment isn't me trying to be
belligerent, it really isn't, but if someone is paying £2 for a bus
fare on more than a few occasions then they're being a bit of a mug.
£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

After a long ponder on this I came to the conclusion that charging
double for those paying cash is not only probably illegal if someone
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft for
a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes I am
sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

North London Line Revisited
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:11:35 +0000, Dave A wrote:

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

I have to say I was a bit surprised to read both of these comments. They
are rather revealing though. I am now somewhat intrigued and may well
toddle along sometime to take a look at just how awful it is. I shall
try to stay in a place where I am not in the way though!

I imagine from a statistical point of view, the main issue is how short
the trains are - PIXC measures the ratio of seats to standing, and those
NLL trains don't have many seats!

If it is like this now I cannot imagine what will happen when
improvements to the overall service start being delivered and suppressed
demand starts to be unlocked - it'll be (even more) awful! That's a
very real challenge for whoever will be running the service. LU will be
taking over the operation of those platforms / station buildings come
November so there the local staff will have all that to deal with.

It will be quite tricky. The station improvement programme will launch
pretty quickly, and that in itself will attract more people to the line
before the trains are even touched. The infrastructure works to permit
the doubling of frequencies can't start until 2009/10 and will run for
three years (pencilled in as west NLL, then east NLL, then GOBLIN).

I have yet another document in front of me which mentions a slightly
different service pattern than the ones I have seen previously - people
have been mentioning 8tph on the ELL to Dalston Junction and only 4tph
beyond to Highbury, but this says 8tph to Highbury (4tph from Crystal
Palace, 4tph from New Cross) and 4tph to Dalston Junction (from West
Croydon). It also mentions "additional peak services to/from Dalston
Junction" (which I presume means fromto/from the south!).

These frequencies are set out as part of Service Level Commitment 2,
which would also see 2tph Stratford - Clapham J, 4tph Stratford -
Richmond and 2tph Stratford - Camden Road - resulting in 16tph from the
Dalston stations to Highbury. That should be more than enough to satisfy
both existing and new demand on that section of line, but of course it
has to wait until the new ELL curve opens in 2011. Prior to that, the
8tph Stratford to Camden Road should be running, but presumably only
from 2010 when infrastructure works have been done.

There may be scope for extra "PIXC-buster" services in the peaks between
Camden Road and Stratford in the meantime - I'm not really sure what the
plan for that is.

Unfortunately, platform extensions are a very tricky business - there
are various plans for them, but as someone else mentioned, some stations
are especially tricky - Dalston Kingsland is one of them (overbridges at
each end). Selective door opening has been mentioned for lightly-used
stations, but Dalston Kingsland isn't one of them.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , Dave A
writes
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes
I am sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

Your missing the point really. I'm not saying Oyster needs and degree to
use, I'm asking why it has to be cheaper than using cash ? I use an
Oyster with a travel card, and I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers. That seems to have set a precedent that could be
applied to charging more to cash users of the transport system. Cash is
still used every day by just about everyone in the UK. Try getting your
morning cuppa at the local cafe with a debit card :-) So fares should
be the same price for cash, as they are on Oyster.

Personally I'd vote for the party that reverted to the old pricing
system and abolished the congestion charge. Anyone fancy starting a one
trick party called say... UK common sense for London party ?? ;-)

It's been done before !!
--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , David of Broadway
writes

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Perhaps because it cannot be used for occasional travel into London on
most of the National Rail network. This will eventually change, of
course.
--
Paul Terry

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

The entire point of the tourism industry is to get people to spend as
much of their money here as possible - it isn't supposed to be a
benevolent charity or even a value proposition. Tourists should pay as
much for travel as the market can sustain, at least as far as it won't
dissuade them from visiting as many high-cost venues as possible.

As the film "Mafia!" said in regard to Vegas tourists; "The smart ones
just send us the money and save on plane fare".

ESB

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

What's this "has to" all about? As has been said before, if they just do
two single tube journeys EVER, they have already saved more than the £3
deposit.

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers.

Most people on key meters have NO choice in the matter, as they didn't
have the credit rating. I am pretty sure that is why. You don't have to
pass a credit check to buy a PAYG Oyster.

North London Line Revisited
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:45:07 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

As the film "Mafia!" said in regard to Vegas tourists; "The smart ones
just send us the money and save on plane fare".

LOL! - a rather good quote.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:24:28 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Dave A
writes
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes
I am sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

Your missing the point really. I'm not saying Oyster needs and degree to
use, I'm asking why it has to be cheaper than using cash ? I use an
Oyster with a travel card, and I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

Oyster is cheaper because overall it delivers huge benefits to TfL and
its customers by being faster, more convenient and saves money relating
to cash payment and processing as well as reducing boarding and queuing
times. These are all hugely important. Therefore there is a push to get
people out of cash by applying a differential.

There is no barrier to people holding an Oyster card and thus
benefitting from lower fares. Such differentials are absolutely standard
on all systems I have used - Hong Kong and Singapore certainly operate
lower fares on bus and rail for Smartcard users compared to cash. There
are also product discounts that are *only* available if you use a card.
These are typically free or discounted transfer trips on a second bus or
a bus to / from a metro service. All of this is entirely legitimate.

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers. That seems to have set a precedent that could be
applied to charging more to cash users of the transport system. Cash is
still used every day by just about everyone in the UK. Try getting your
morning cuppa at the local cafe with a debit card :-) So fares should
be the same price for cash, as they are on Oyster.

Sorry but flawed logic. See my examples above - nothing illegal about
them. You might also be shocked at how many people use debit cards in
stores for purchases (including food and drink) of about £1 or over.

Another person has responded on the electricity issue - Oyster vs cash
fares is not the same.

Personally I'd vote for the party that reverted to the old pricing
system and abolished the congestion charge. Anyone fancy starting a one
trick party called say... UK common sense for London party ?? ;-)

As you would appear from your posts to be a natural Tory supporter I
look forward to your reaction when David Cameron's candidate for London
Mayor fails to adopt your preferred (but backward) policies.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, TimB wrote:

On Mar 16, 10:20 pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
plus some!

Not really - Ipswich-Peterborough would do (widening and
electrification, please).

Part of the problem is the number of larger containers that are
currently only passed for the route via the NLL. IIRC Hutchinson Ports
have already offered to contribute towards gauge enhancements on the
Ipswich to Peterborough route, to allow trains to run that way.

Which is what I meant by widening. The sooner the better!

I believe the issue with the gauge is not one of width, but rather of
height - the shipping industry of moving from standard containers with a
height of 8'6" to the 'high cube' type with a height of 9'6". Standard
containers will go through the W8 gauge, but high cubes won't; i *think*
high cubes will fit in W9 gauge, but don't quote me on that - it rather
depends on how high the bed of the wagon is.

So, if by 'widening', you meant 'increasing the height', fine. But i wish
you'd said so in the first place!

tom

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WHO REPLACED THE CLIENT FILES WITH TEQUILA.. ALFONZ??