Oh dear. It seems that even the existence of RMs paralleling
conventional accessible routes isn't to everyone's satisfaction.......

I must confess that I'm surprised by what seems to be an attitude that,
if someone can't have or do something, then no-one should be able to.
Anyone wanting to catch a 9 or 15 and using a wheelchair can do so on a
conventional bus.

Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6173193.stm

"More than 50 years since they appeared on London's streets, the
Routemasters are still running - but not everyone is delighted.

Routemasters are still rolling on in the age of the Oystercard
The veteran vehicle with its curvy design and its open platform has been
called "the last bus to be a proper bus".

Many Londoners remember fondly how they used to hop on and off them and
pull the string to ring the bell.

But a Disability Rights Commission spokesman says it is "a bashed-up old
relic from a bygone age" and the fact that it is still running on two
central London heritage routes is "a disappointment".

A programme of repurchase and refurbishment - begun after the election
of Mayor Ken Livingstone in 2000 - stopped in 2003-4, and the last
full-scale route - the 159 - withdrew its Routemasters in December 2005.

What remained was the heritage routes - though only in the hours from
0930 to 1800 and only on the central part of two routes, the 9 (Albert
Hall to Aldwych) and 15 (Tower of London to Trafalgar Square).

So if you want to get a bus along Piccadilly or Knightsbridge, what
comes along may well be a Routemaster - painted in its original livery
inside and out. Still rolling along in the age of the bendy-bus and the
Oystercard.


Enthusiasts

Transport for London calls the 50-year-old model "a design icon
synonymous with London" and invites passengers to "take a trip on a
London landmark" by using the heritage routes.

Meanwhile, enthusiasts spend thousands of pounds to own one and drive
them across Britain to attend rallies.

Although we're improving the bus network by introducing new, more
accessible buses, Routemasters will not be disappearing completely

They hail them as the climax of a series of buses designed in London,
for London. Supporters point to their lightness, their new
environmentally-friendly engines and their fuel economy compared with
later, heavier double-deckers.

But wheelchair users cannot get on them - and some people dislike them a
lot.

Transport consultant Andrew Braddock says Routemasters are "quirky - as
is almost anything built to a design effectively laid out in 1912 and
around for nearly three times its expected life".

"We've stated to Transport for London that we're not happy about the
heritage routes," says Disability Rights Commission spokesman Patrick
Edwards.

He stresses that in 2017 it will be illegal to have public transport
that is inaccessible and "TfL are opening themselves to legal action".

Routemaster platforms are fun for some, impossible for others

TfL points out that the heritage Route buses are in addition to the
normal schedules on the 9 and 15, and disabled people can access low
floor, wheelchair-accessible buses on both routes.

Mr Edwards is not impressed with the argument that many disabled,
elderly and frail people may have preferred Routemasters because they
had conductors.

That is suggesting that disabled people can only get around London "with
the goodwill and behest of a helping hand", he believes.

Andrew Braddock, formerly head of access and mobility at Transport for
London, accepts that "the total number of wheelchair users is inevitably
small... but the number of trips being made by this previously ignored
group is growing all the time".

Transport for London says it encourages disabled people to use public
transport and its bus fleet is wheelchair accessible - if you don't
count the 16 Routemasters on the heritage routes - but, says Mr
Braddock, "disabled people need to gain confidence that all the links in
the chain will work when they make any journey."

What of the future? Andrew Morgan, chairman of the Routemaster
Association, regrets the abrupt way in which Routemaster services in
London were terminated.

"The original idea in 2001 was absolutely right in my opinion," he said.

Mayor Ken Livingstone had promised to retain the Routemaster and
increase the number of bus conductors.

Ultimate

"That would have given him breathing space to design a suitable
replacement, not buy the next available thing out of the factory. Now we
have things off the shelf and German bendy-buses, and the travel
experience has not improved. It's gone backwards," says Mr Morgan.

He claims the Routemaster was "the ultimate design.. so well built, so
well engineered that it kept going for more 50 years, and at the
beginning of the 21st century it was re-engineered again up to modern
standards."


THE LAST BUS? KEY FACTS

Routemasters first entered service in 1956
In total, 2,876 were built
Some 1,300 still exist
London Transport said they would be phased out by 1978
They were last used on a regular route in 2005
The bus in Summer Holiday was not a Routemaster
It was an RT - the previous model



A worthy successor would have the same merit of lightness, built in
aluminium with no chassis, and would have a conductor - as well as
having a low floor for accessibility.


Would it have an open platform for jumping on and off? "Where
appropriate," says Andrew Morgan. Doors could be included and closed on
some sections of the route, but left open elsewhere.

For the Routemasters, apart from rallies and private functions, only the
heritage routes now remain.

TfL says it is pleased with the level of interest in the Heritage routes
and no changes or extensions to them are being considered at present.

Andrew Morgan thinks they are "moderately successful". He believes
disability campaigners' attitude to them may be "sour grapes, because
they didn't quite win the battle".

Andrew Braddock feels the buses' limited role on the heritage routes
makes sense, but adds: "Whether American and Japanese tourists really
perceive a Routemaster to be something different from the other 6,000 or
so red double-deckers I frankly doubt."
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:18:32 +0000, wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:18:28 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


The veteran vehicle with its curvy design and its open platform has been
called "the last bus to be a proper bus".

I agree this bus and its Brothers up and down the UK where the last of
the proper buses I used to drive them up here in Preston and to be
honest I just could not be doing with the two pedal nonsense give me a
real bus any day .

Erm....
A Routemaster "is" a two-pedal bus...........

DC

Ian Jelf ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Oh dear. It seems that even the existence of RMs paralleling
conventional accessible routes isn't to everyone's satisfaction.......

Is anything *ever*...?

I must confess that I'm surprised by what seems to be an attitude
that, if someone can't have or do something, then no-one should be
able to.

Wish I was.

Transport consultant Andrew Braddock says Routemasters are "quirky -

Is that a *bad* thing...?

He stresses that in 2017 it will be illegal to have public transport
that is inaccessible and "TfL are opening themselves to legal action".

And by then, every SINGLE tube station will be wheelchair-accesible, will
it? Because they sure as hell aren't now.

On Mar 20, 2:14�pm, Adrian wrote:
Ian Jelf ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Oh dear. * It seems that even the existence of RMs paralleling
conventional accessible routes isn't to everyone's satisfaction.......

Is anything *ever*...?

I must confess that I'm surprised by what seems to be an attitude
that, if someone can't have or do something, then no-one should be
able to.

Wish I was.

Transport consultant Andrew Braddock says Routemasters are "quirky -

Is that a *bad* thing...?

He stresses that in 2017 it will be illegal to have public transport
that is inaccessible and "TfL are opening themselves to legal action".

And by then, every SINGLE tube station will be wheelchair-accesible, will
it? Because they sure as hell aren't now.

Here is the detail of the formal complaint I have lodged at the
Disability Rights Commission about Mr. Edwards: may I suggest others
who see the idiocy of his comments do likewise?

"I understand that Mr. Edwards has been complaining about the
existence of 12 Routemaster buses on 2 heritage routes. He is
misleading his audience when he makes his complaint: these buses are
EXTRAS, and compliment the full number of accessible buses on these 2
routes. These EXTRA buses can no more be said to be discriminatory
than if I drive my car on the road, providing 5 EXTRA seats to be
occupied. He is also making an idiotic argument worse by claiming
that ALL public transport will have to be disabled-access by 2017: is
he suggesting that TFL and the vast majority of National Rail trains
and stations will be decommissioned as being illegal in 2017?

"Mr. Edwards is clearly a moron and does your organisation a great
disservice.

Marc.

David C wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:18:32 +0000, wrote:

I agree this bus and its Brothers up and down the UK where the last
of the proper buses I used to drive them up here in Preston and to be
honest I just could not be doing with the two pedal nonsense give me
a real bus any day .

Erm....
A Routemaster "is" a two-pedal bus...........

What, no engine?

) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

is he suggesting that TFL

LU, surely?

and the vast majority of National Rail trains and stations will be
decommissioned as being illegal in 2017?

John Rowland ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Erm....
A Routemaster "is" a two-pedal bus...........

What, no engine?

You'd quickly end up with a serious pair of thighs...

On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:18:28 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

I must confess that I'm surprised by what seems to be an attitude that,
if someone can't have or do something, then no-one should be able to.
Anyone wanting to catch a 9 or 15 and using a wheelchair can do so on a
conventional bus.

I was surprised to read the piece as well, part;y because (like others
in the thread) I can't imagine that if the heritage routes were
withdrawn they'd be replaced by extra low-floor buses, partly because
in my experience wheelchair users on London buses are rare (that's not
to decry the importance of catering for them) so there really isn't an
issue of insufficient capacity for wheelchair users on these routes.

Martin