LU end-to-end journey data
 

Right,

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU are
now done with Oyster?

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on its
network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual hard
numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each line. This
would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is it public, and
what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique ID
on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should already
have had this data.

tom

--
REMOVE AND DESTROY

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Right,

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU are
now done with Oyster?

Very close to 100% for stations being gated. However a proportion of
entry and exit is via open interchange and there is no need to validate
at these points unless using PAYG.

I have not seen the figures for a while but a considerable proportion of
LU trips are now on Oyster but it is not as high as you might think due
to One Day Travelcards remaining on magnetics and also a lot of people
will be using TOC purchased Travelcards that are also on magnetics.

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on its
network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual hard
numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each line. This
would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is it public, and
what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

It was certainly the intent that the data would be used for journey and
service planning. To be honest it is more valuable in some respects
where it shows modal interchange or bus to bus interchange. The
opportunities to better understand "total" journeys rather than just the
rail element are more attractive and adjusting bus services to provide
through or "round the corner" services is easier.

I have yet to see anything internal to LU that shows how the Oyster data
is being used in terms of planning. Planning data is not adjusted every
few months so the use of Oyster derived data may not have happened yet
on any large scale. There are certain key models that would use it but I
don't know when these are being updated (not really my area to be
honest).

The other key issue is the reliability of the data and its statistical
robustness. The collection of Oyster data is relatively new and while it
is obviously based around actual usage there will still be some risks as
to its reliability and these would have to be assessed and compensated
for before it was used for modelling purposes. The fact that take up is
still being promoted and that TOC equipment roll out is yet to come will
affect the data for years to come.

You have not specified the granularity of the information you would want
but I would be surprised if the data was released to the public at any
great level of detail. You might get broad brush annualised data for
journey flows but perhaps not "xxx passengers travelled from Epping to
Loughton on Sunday 22 April 2007". Still there's nothing to stop you
asking under FOI.

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique ID
on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should already
have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very small
part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and although
they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow "ticket
123456" through the system.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

LU end-to-end journey data
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Right,

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU are
now done with Oyster?

Very close to 100% for stations being gated. However a proportion of
entry and exit is via open interchange and there is no need to validate
at these points unless using PAYG.

I have not seen the figures for a while but a considerable proportion of
LU trips are now on Oyster but it is not as high as you might think due
to One Day Travelcards remaining on magnetics and also a lot of people
will be using TOC purchased Travelcards that are also on magnetics.

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on its
network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual hard
numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each line. This
would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is it public, and
what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

It was certainly the intent that the data would be used for journey and
service planning. To be honest it is more valuable in some respects
where it shows modal interchange or bus to bus interchange. The
opportunities to better understand "total" journeys rather than just the
rail element are more attractive and adjusting bus services to provide
through or "round the corner" services is easier.

I have yet to see anything internal to LU that shows how the Oyster data
is being used in terms of planning. Planning data is not adjusted every
few months so the use of Oyster derived data may not have happened yet
on any large scale. There are certain key models that would use it but I
don't know when these are being updated (not really my area to be
honest).

The other key issue is the reliability of the data and its statistical
robustness. The collection of Oyster data is relatively new and while it
is obviously based around actual usage there will still be some risks as
to its reliability and these would have to be assessed and compensated
for before it was used for modelling purposes. The fact that take up is
still being promoted and that TOC equipment roll out is yet to come will
affect the data for years to come.

You have not specified the granularity of the information you would want
but I would be surprised if the data was released to the public at any
great level of detail. You might get broad brush annualised data for
journey flows but perhaps not "xxx passengers travelled from Epping to
Loughton on Sunday 22 April 2007". Still there's nothing to stop you
asking under FOI.

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique ID
on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should already
have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very small
part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and although
they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow "ticket
123456" through the system.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!



Epping to Loughton on Sunday 22nd April 2007. I cannot imagine very many
people....unless you know something we don't :)

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU
are now done with Oyster?

Very close to 100% for stations being gated. However a proportion of
entry and exit is via open interchange and there is no need to validate
at these points unless using PAYG.

True. Any guess as to the scale of that?

I have not seen the figures for a while but a considerable proportion of
LU trips are now on Oyster but it is not as high as you might think due
to One Day Travelcards remaining on magnetics and also a lot of people
will be using TOC purchased Travelcards that are also on magnetics.

Ah yes, had forgotten about those. Are you meaning normal travelcards
bought from NR stations (are these not on oyster?) or tickets like
Sticksford-on-Sea to Z1 seasons, which include a travelcard part?

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on
its network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual
hard numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each
line. This would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is it
public, and what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

It was certainly the intent that the data would be used for journey and
service planning.

That's what i thought.

To be honest it is more valuable in some respects where it shows modal
interchange or bus to bus interchange. The opportunities to better
understand "total" journeys rather than just the rail element are more
attractive and adjusting bus services to provide through or "round the
corner" services is easier.

Absolutely - although the lack of people touching *out* of buses is going
to hamper this, at least at the finish of a rail-bus journey.

Nevertheless, the tube-only info would also be interesting!

I have yet to see anything internal to LU that shows how the Oyster data
is being used in terms of planning. Planning data is not adjusted every
few months so the use of Oyster derived data may not have happened yet
on any large scale. There are certain key models that would use it but I
don't know when these are being updated (not really my area to be
honest).

Fair enough. We've had oyster for a while now, though, so i'm surprised
the data hasn't made it out there.

The other key issue is the reliability of the data and its statistical
robustness. The collection of Oyster data is relatively new and while it
is obviously based around actual usage there will still be some risks as
to its reliability and these would have to be assessed and compensated
for before it was used for modelling purposes.

True, but i would think that armed with the raw counts, reasonably
accurate entry/exit figures for each station and the dodgy but simple
assumptions that travelcard trips through ungated stations are distributed
in the same way as PAYG trips, and that paper ticket trips are distributed
the same as oyster trips, you could come up with something coherent and
useful.

The fact that take up is still being promoted and that TOC equipment
roll out is yet to come will affect the data for years to come.

True, but right now, we should have usable data for LU.

You have not specified the granularity of the information you would want
but I would be surprised if the data was released to the public at any
great level of detail. You might get broad brush annualised data for
journey flows but perhaps not "xxx passengers travelled from Epping to
Loughton on Sunday 22 April 2007".

I'd be quite happy with a matrix of annual flows between each pair of
stations, or perhaps several such matrices, for different days of the week
and times of day.

Still there's nothing to stop you asking under FOI.

True!

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique
ID on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should
already have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very small
part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and although
they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow "ticket
123456" through the system.

As i suspected.

Cheers for the info!

tom

--
I only listen to mashups of The Carpenters and ear-bleeding German gabber
-- boomaga

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 23, 9:52 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU
are now done with Oyster?

Very close to 100% for stations being gated. However a proportion of
entry and exit is via open interchange and there is no need to validate
at these points unless using PAYG.

True. Any guess as to the scale of that?

I have not seen the figures for a while but a considerable proportion of
LU trips are now on Oyster but it is not as high as you might think due
to One Day Travelcards remaining on magnetics and also a lot of people
will be using TOC purchased Travelcards that are also on magnetics.

Ah yes, had forgotten about those. Are you meaning normal travelcards
bought from NR stations (are these not on oyster?) or tickets like
Sticksford-on-Sea to Z1 seasons, which include a travelcard part?

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on
its network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual
hard numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each
line. This would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is it
public, and what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

It was certainly the intent that the data would be used for journey and
service planning.

That's what i thought.

To be honest it is more valuable in some respects where it shows modal
interchange or bus to bus interchange. The opportunities to better
understand "total" journeys rather than just the rail element are more
attractive and adjusting bus services to provide through or "round the
corner" services is easier.

Absolutely - although the lack of people touching *out* of buses is going
to hamper this, at least at the finish of a rail-bus journey.


That would kind of depend on the Oyster pad in a bus knowing where it
was.

The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper
travelcard, but I don't if GPS would be reliable enough for something
as variable as a bus.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 23, 9:52 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

What fraction of LU stations are gated? What fractions of trips on LU
are now done with Oyster?

Very close to 100% for stations being gated. However a proportion of
entry and exit is via open interchange and there is no need to validate
at these points unless using PAYG.

True. Any guess as to the scale of that?

I have not seen the figures for a while but a considerable proportion
of
LU trips are now on Oyster but it is not as high as you might think due
to One Day Travelcards remaining on magnetics and also a lot of people
will be using TOC purchased Travelcards that are also on magnetics.

Ah yes, had forgotten about those. Are you meaning normal travelcards
bought from NR stations (are these not on oyster?) or tickets like
Sticksford-on-Sea to Z1 seasons, which include a travelcard part?

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then
LU
should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made on
its network - in terms of where they start and end, at least. Actual
hard numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on each
line. This would be really interesting to look at. Does it exist, is
it
public, and what would be my chances of getting it via FOIA?

It was certainly the intent that the data would be used for journey and
service planning.

That's what i thought.

To be honest it is more valuable in some respects where it shows modal
interchange or bus to bus interchange. The opportunities to better
understand "total" journeys rather than just the rail element are more
attractive and adjusting bus services to provide through or "round the
corner" services is easier.

Absolutely - although the lack of people touching *out* of buses is going
to hamper this, at least at the finish of a rail-bus journey.


That would kind of depend on the Oyster pad in a bus knowing where it
was.

The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper
travelcard, but I don't if GPS would be reliable enough for something
as variable as a bus.

IIRC, GPS is used in Perth (Western Australia). As the system required users
to touch in and out on the bus, as there is a sliding scale of fares.

cheers
Peter
Sydney

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, MIG wrote:

On Apr 23, 9:52 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

If the answers to these questions are both 'the vast majority', then
LU should now have a massive amount of data about journeys being made
on its network - in terms of where they start and end, at least.
Actual hard numbers, not estimates or surveys of passenger density on
each line. This would be really interesting to look at. Does it
exist, is it public, and what would be my chances of getting it via
FOIA?

To be honest it is more valuable in some respects where it shows modal
interchange or bus to bus interchange. The opportunities to better
understand "total" journeys rather than just the rail element are more
attractive and adjusting bus services to provide through or "round the
corner" services is easier.

Absolutely - although the lack of people touching *out* of buses is
going to hamper this, at least at the finish of a rail-bus journey.

That would kind of depend on the Oyster pad in a bus knowing where it
was.

Ha - yes, very true!

The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper travelcard,

Serves you right for having a paper travelcard :).

Gates should be able to do this; say you have a Z12 paper travelcard and
an oyster with some pre-pay, and you go from Z1 to Z4, when you want to
get out at your destination, you should be able to stick your paper card
in, have it rejected with an 'excess fare required' message, then touch
your oyster to pay it. Well, that would be nice, anyway.

but I don't if GPS would be reliable enough for something as variable as
a bus.

Back in the days before flat fares, buses knew roughly where they were -
they needed to know what fare stage they were in for the machine to price
the tickets. I think the driver had to push a button every now and then.
There's currently some sort of beacon system on some routes, for tracking
buses, but i don't know if it tells buses where they are. There's some
sort of alleged 'iBus' system on its way which will provide accurate
tracking of all buses:

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/96

It remains to be seen how well this will work.

Also, we're still not going to have people touching out. Might be possible
to install long-range card readers on the doors to track people getting
out, but that's getting a bit crazy ...

tom

--
I don't wanna know your name, i just want BANG BANG BANG!

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:40:13 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, MIG wrote:
The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper travelcard,

Serves you right for having a paper travelcard :).

Gates should be able to do this; say you have a Z12 paper travelcard and
an oyster with some pre-pay, and you go from Z1 to Z4, when you want to
get out at your destination, you should be able to stick your paper card
in, have it rejected with an 'excess fare required' message, then touch
your oyster to pay it. Well, that would be nice, anyway.

That wouldn't work. People would get to the zone 4 barrier with
their zone 1-2 ticket, get an excess fare required message and
wonder off to find a member of staff if they don't have an Oyster
card. Meanwhile the person behind them would end up paying the
excess fare from their Oyster balance.

David

LU end-to-end journey data
 

Back in the days before flat fares, buses knew roughly where they were -
they needed to know what fare stage they were in for the machine to price
the tickets. I think the driver had to push a button every now and then.
There's currently some sort of beacon system on some routes, for tracking
buses, but i don't know if it tells buses where they are.

I noticed from observing a recent bus ticket machine, they still retain
their fare stages, but only the final one is displayed and the driver
didn't change the stage. So, any ticket issued would have been valid
Cockfosters Stn (start of route) to Aitken Drive (end of route).

As to getting FOI informaton, not sure. I was able to retrieve total
passenger numbers for Local Authority contracted bus services (outside
London) - but obviously getting bus passenger data is easier.

If you select the line name from the left-hand side menu, you can see
passenger numbers. ISTR seeing actual statistics of station usage on the
site somewhere, but can't seem to find it.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

If you select the line name from the left-hand side menu, you can see
passenger numbers. ISTR seeing actual statistics of station usage on the
site somewhere, but can't seem to find it.

Apologies for following up my own post, I've found it
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/...load=entryexit

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 24, 1:37 pm, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:40:13 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, MIG wrote:
The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper travelcard,

Serves you right for having a paper travelcard :).

Gates should be able to do this; say you have a Z12 paper travelcard and
an oyster with some pre-pay, and you go from Z1 to Z4, when you want to
get out at your destination, you should be able to stick your paper card
in, have it rejected with an 'excess fare required' message, then touch
your oyster to pay it. Well, that would be nice, anyway.

That wouldn't work. People would get to the zone 4 barrier with
their zone 1-2 ticket, get an excess fare required message and
wonder off to find a member of staff if they don't have an Oyster
card. Meanwhile the person behind them would end up paying the
excess fare from their Oyster balance.

David


No, the answer is to sell extensions at a sensible price to people who
can show a paper travelcard at the start of their journey.

There's no reason why the £4 punishment fare should apply to people
who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, David Walters wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:40:13 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, MIG wrote:

The ticket gates usually stay where they are. Readers in trains along
with some kind of GPS would save on the ridiculous going up the
escalator situation when passing the boundary of your paper
travelcard,

Serves you right for having a paper travelcard :).

Gates should be able to do this; say you have a Z12 paper travelcard
and an oyster with some pre-pay, and you go from Z1 to Z4, when you
want to get out at your destination, you should be able to stick your
paper card in, have it rejected with an 'excess fare required' message,
then touch your oyster to pay it. Well, that would be nice, anyway.

That wouldn't work. People would get to the zone 4 barrier with their
zone 1-2 ticket, get an excess fare required message and wonder off to
find a member of staff if they don't have an Oyster card. Meanwhile the
person behind them would end up paying the excess fare from their Oyster
balance.

I knew someone was going to say that!

A technical solution would be to have the gates able to detect when a
paper ticket had been pulled out of the return slot. You have the
excession mechanism operate only if the paper ticket is still in the slot,
with the gate considering a swipe after a paper ticket has been removed as
a new interaction. This only fails if someone puts in a paper ticket, is
rebuffed, wanders off leaving the ticket in place, and the person behind
them doesn't notice.

tom

--
these are my testing supplies

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 24, 5:38 pm, MIG wrote:

No, the answer is to sell extensions at a sensible price to people who
can show a paper travelcard at the start of their journey.

There's no reason why the £4 punishment fare should apply to people
who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are valid
from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

If you have any other form of period Travelcard, then not getting it
on Oyster is just bizarre masochism.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LU end-to-end journey data
 

John B wrote:

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are valid
from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

Even on the Met north of Moor Park?

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 26, 11:57 am, John B wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:38 pm, MIG wrote:



No, the answer is to sell extensions at a sensible price to people who
can show a paper travelcard at the start of their journey.

There's no reason why the £4 punishment fare should apply to people
who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are valid
from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

If you have any other form of period Travelcard, then not getting it
on Oyster is just bizarre masochism.


Have you still not heard that National Rail stations don't sell or
update Oyster cards? Or that not everyone has an Oyster shop between
their home and their nearest station?

Or do you just mean that the bizarre masochism you refer to is
subsumed by the bizarre masochism of living in South London?

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On 26 Apr 2007 03:57:22 -0700, John B wrote:

No, the answer is to sell extensions at a sensible price to people who
can show a paper travelcard at the start of their journey.

There's no reason why the £4 punishment fare should apply to people
who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are valid
from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

Not so. They can be valid to any of the following:

Z1-6
Z2-6
Z3-6
Z4-6
Z5-6
Z6

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 26, 7:05 pm, MIG wrote:
If you have any other form of period Travelcard, then not getting it
on Oyster is just bizarre masochism.

Have you still not heard that National Rail stations don't sell or
update Oyster cards? Or that not everyone has an Oyster shop between
their home and their nearest station?

Given I bought my annual z1-2 season ticket (with associated Gold
Record Card) on my Oyster card three weeks ago at a National Rail
station, I'm sceptical about your first claim.

When it comes to your latter claim, I'm still sceptical that there is
anyone who both requires daily travel within London, and lives and
works so far away from an Oyster-enabled ticket office or shop, that
dragging themselves to an Oyster venue once a month or once a year to
renew is a genuine problem.

Or do you just mean that the bizarre masochism you refer to is
subsumed by the bizarre masochism of living in South London?

While I do view living in South London as a kind of bizarre masochism,
I'm gradually getting the I'm shifting from N4 to E1 in a month or
so, and that's practically south of the river...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 27, 12:54 am, John B wrote:
On Apr 26, 7:05 pm, MIG wrote:

If you have any other form of period Travelcard, then not getting it
on Oyster is just bizarre masochism.

Have you still not heard that National Rail stations don't sell or
update Oyster cards? Or that not everyone has an Oyster shop between
their home and their nearest station?

Given I bought my annual z1-2 season ticket (with associated Gold
Record Card) on my Oyster card three weeks ago at a National Rail
station, I'm sceptical about your first claim.


No need to be, it must be easy enough to check. Some have a card only
machine. Some have no facility at all.

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster? At least, which have anything more
than a Credit Card only machine? Some have neither. Putney springs
to mind as an example of a relatively major station with absolutely no
Oyster facility apart from the gates.




When it comes to your latter claim, I'm still sceptical that there is
anyone who both requires daily travel within London, and lives and
works so far away from an Oyster-enabled ticket office or shop, that
dragging themselves to an Oyster venue once a month or once a year to
renew is a genuine problem.


What if you are in a hurry to get to work in the mornings? (Some
people are.) What if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

Real life practicallity intervenes in the ideal model of what's
possible.



Or do you just mean that the bizarre masochism you refer to is
subsumed by the bizarre masochism of living in South London?

While I do view living in South London as a kind of bizarre masochism,
I'm gradually getting the I'm shifting from N4 to E1 in a month or
so, and that's practically south of the river...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot orgwww.johnband.org

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 27, 6:55 am, MIG wrote:
If you have any other form of period Travelcard, then not getting it
on Oyster is just bizarre masochism.

Have you still not heard that National Rail stations don't sell or
update Oyster cards? Or that not everyone has an Oyster shop between
their home and their nearest station?

Given I bought my annual z1-2 season ticket (with associated Gold
Record Card) on my Oyster card three weeks ago at a National Rail
station, I'm sceptical about your first claim.

No need to be, it must be easy enough to check. Some have a card only
machine. Some have no facility at all.

I read your claim as "[all] National Rail stations" rather than
"[some] National Rail stations" - apologies.

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster? At least, which have anything more
than a Credit Card only machine? Some have neither. Putney springs
to mind as an example of a relatively major station with absolutely no
Oyster facility apart from the gates.

My local one does (Finsbury Park, FCC side). I haven't tried
elsewhere.

When it comes to your latter claim, I'm still sceptical that there is
anyone who both requires daily travel within London, and lives and
works so far away from an Oyster-enabled ticket office or shop, that
dragging themselves to an Oyster venue once a month or once a year to
renew is a genuine problem.

What if you are in a hurry to get to work in the mornings? (Some
people are.)

Renew the night before.

What if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

London Underground Limited, then go to the nearest Tube station. Or go
to the newsagent, ask him his business name, and then return to the
accounts department.

Real life practicallity intervenes in the ideal model of what's
possible.

Only if your forward planning skills are dangerously limited.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LU end-to-end journey data
 

John B wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster? At least, which have anything more
than a Credit Card only machine? Some have neither. Putney springs
to mind as an example of a relatively major station with absolutely no
Oyster facility apart from the gates.

My local one does (Finsbury Park, FCC side).

Since Finsbury Park is served by LU, it's not an answer to the question.
Yes, many NR stations that are served by LU can sell Oyster on the NR
side. But many which aren't can't.
--
Michael Hoffman

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Here is a complete list:

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG
wrote:

hat if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

"London Underground Limited", in my case. I do my research before I
need to start panicking.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On 26 Apr 2007 03:57:22 -0700, John B wrote:

No, the answer is to sell extensions at a sensible price to
people who can show a paper travelcard at the start of their
journey.

There's no reason why the £4 punishment fare should apply to
people who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are
valid from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

Not so. They can be valid to any of the following:

Z1-6
Z2-6
Z3-6
Z4-6
Z5-6
Z6

Eh? To a London Terminal?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 27, 9:25 pm, James Farrar wrote:
On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG
wrote:

hat if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

"London Underground Limited", in my case. I do my research before I
need to start panicking.



Er, hallo? If you live in south London? What research tells you the
payee of your nearest Oyster shop?

My journeys to and from work don't involve any LU stations or NR
stations that sell Oyster, and yet I need a zone 1 & 2 travelcard.

This means that I am punished on the few occasions when I need to go
to zone 3 by LU.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 27, 12:56 pm, asdf wrote:
On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Here is a complete list:

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction



Wow. Comprehensive huh? Thank you for this.

However, some of these stations have card-only machines. The ticket
offices still don't sell Oyster, and if you want to pay by cheque or
cash you are stuffed.

When will the Oyster apologists wake up and make the bluddy thing
available or else stop punishing those of us for whom it is not fully
available?

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On 27 Apr 2007 16:11:08 -0700, MIG
wrote:

What research tells you the payee of your nearest Oyster shop?

Going along to it and asking them politely.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:46 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

people who need an extension on a paper travelcard.

AIUI, period Travelcards from out-boundary on National Rail are
valid from z1-6, so the question doesn't arise.

Not so. They can be valid to any of the following:

Z1-6
Z2-6
Z3-6
Z4-6
Z5-6
Z6

Eh? To a London Terminal?

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll attempt to illustrate my previous
post with an example.

The following season tickets which include Travelcards are available
from Redhill (which is outside Z6):

Redhill to Z1-6
Redhill to Z2-6
Redhill to Z3-6
Redhill to Z4-6
Redhill to Z5-6
Redhill to Z6

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 28, 12:11 am, MIG wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:25 pm, James Farrar wrote:

On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG
wrote:

hat if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

"London Underground Limited", in my case. I do my research before I
need to start panicking.

Er, hallo? If you live in south London? What research tells you the
payee of your nearest Oyster shop?

My journeys to and from work don't involve any LU stations or NR
stations that sell Oyster, and yet I need a zone 1 & 2 travelcard.

This means that I am punished on the few occasions when I need to go
to zone 3 by LU.

OK, this doesn't seem to fit with any reality I understand. Where can
you possibly go every day for work in Zone 1 that is a station, and
that doesn't do Oyster? Even if you're commuting by NR, all the London
Terminals have attached Underground stations...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 28, 11:31 am, John B wrote:
On Apr 28, 12:11 am, MIG wrote:





On Apr 27, 9:25 pm, James Farrar wrote:

On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG
wrote:

hat if you pay by preprinted company cheque (eg a loan)
and don't know the payee at an Oyster shop, or whether they'd accept
it? Your season's about to expire. You are standing in the Accounts
department. What do you tell them to put on the cheque?

"London Underground Limited", in my case. I do my research before I
need to start panicking.

Er, hallo? If you live in south London? What research tells you the
payee of your nearest Oyster shop?

My journeys to and from work don't involve any LU stations or NR
stations that sell Oyster, and yet I need a zone 1 & 2 travelcard.

This means that I am punished on the few occasions when I need to go
to zone 3 by LU.

OK, this doesn't seem to fit with any reality I understand. Where can
you possibly go every day for work in Zone 1 that is a station, and
that doesn't do Oyster? Even if you're commuting by NR, all the London
Terminals have attached Underground stations...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot orgwww.johnband.org-



Firstly, even if I did work in Zone 1 (like when I worked near Oxford
Circus), I would still need to queue for half an hour in the evening
rush hour to pay by company cheque to renew for the following day.
Preferable to pay at my local station.

As it happens, I don't work in zone 1, but I do need to pass through
it, usually in a hurry. No LU involved. Station one end has a credit
card only machine (which doesn't take cheques), station the other end
has no Oyster facility at all. Neither deals with Oyster at the
counter.

All the things you suggest are POSSIBLE. The point is that you have
to plan ahead like a military operation and make all kinds of
diversions in order to avoid the potential punishment fares for not
having your travelcard on Oyster when you do occaionally go to zone 3
on LU.

It's not my fault that if I do the typical thing of going to my local
station in the morning to catch a train and renew my travelcard at the
same time, I can only get a paper one.

And whether you believe me or not does not in any way argue against my
suggstion of selling reasonably priced paper extensions to people who,
for reasons which you may consider to be insane, have a paper
travelcard. In fact, there's simply no need for extensions to be £4,
because they are by definition added to a travelcard.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

MIG wrote

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Here is a complete list:

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

Wow. Comprehensive huh? Thank you for this.

However, some of these stations have card-only machines. The ticket
offices still don't sell Oyster, and if you want to pay by cheque or
cash you are stuffed.

Will you and anyone else with personal experience mark the list
accordingly ?

Same for NR stations that *are* served by LU such as
Euston,
Liverpool St,
Kings Cross (Thameslink)
Marylebone
Richmond
Wimbledon

When will the Oyster apologists wake up and make the bluddy thing
available or else stop punishing those of us for whom it is not fully
available?

Between now and 2008 no doubt.

--
Mike D

LU end-to-end journey data
 

MIG wrote

All the things you suggest are POSSIBLE. The point is that you have
to plan ahead like a military operation and make all kinds of
diversions in order to avoid the potential punishment fares for not
having your travelcard on Oyster when you do occaionally go to zone 3
on LU.

It's not my fault that if I do the typical thing of going to my local
station in the morning to catch a train and renew my travelcard at the
same time, I can only get a paper one.

Which is something I never did. In all my years with an annual I bought
it the day or W/E before or by mail. People who queued on Monday I
assumed liked queuing or liked complaining or both.

I do recall leaving work late or doing evening shopping so as to get to
the ticket window after the evening rush but then I don't expect the
world to be constructed to let me do as I wish and to also minimise my
time spent queuing.


--
Mike D

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Apr 28, 11:23 pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
MIG wrote

All the things you suggest are POSSIBLE. The point is that you have

to plan ahead like a military operation and make all kinds of
diversions in order to avoid the potential punishment fares for not
having your travelcard on Oyster when you do occaionally go to zone 3
on LU.

It's not my fault that if I do the typical thing of going to my local

station in the morning to catch a train and renew my travelcard at the
same time, I can only get a paper one.

Which is something I never did. In all my years with an annual I bought
it the day or W/E before or by mail. People who queued on Monday I
assumed liked queuing or liked complaining or both.

I do recall leaving work late or doing evening shopping so as to get to
the ticket window after the evening rush but then I don't expect the
world to be constructed to let me do as I wish and to also minimise my
time spent queuing.


A local ticket office open in the evening?

A ticket office that sells Oyster in the evening but not the morning?

I didn't expect the world to be reconstructed to punish me for doing
the natural thing (ie buy my tickets at the station where I get on the
train), but it was.

It's unnecessary. Stop charging £4 for extensions. It's an obvious
and simple solution to the problem. All you are doing is picking on
every little thing I mention instead of addressing this basic point.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

asdf wrote:
On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Here is a complete list:

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/wheret...kets/1074.aspx

lists all NR stations with oyster capabilities.

From that list, at least:

Caledonian Road
Camden Road
Canonbury

are missing from your list and don't have LuL services (I'm not going to
try and recognize which NR stations on the TFL list have LuL services
too; I'll only get it wrong).

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:58:49 +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/wheret...kets/1074.aspx

lists all NR stations with oyster capabilities.

From that list, at least:

Caledonian Road
Camden Road
Canonbury

are missing from your list and don't have LuL services (I'm not going to
try and recognize which NR stations on the TFL list have LuL services
too; I'll only get it wrong).

I was using the list at
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ystercard.html .

At first I thought it just wasn't as up to date as the TfL one, but,
strangely, there are some stations on the NR list that aren't on the
TfL list as well as vice versa.

Anyway, the stations on the TfL list that aren't on the NR list (so
can be added to my previous list above) are as follows:

All NLL stations
South Hampstead
Kilburn High Road
Drayton Park
Ilford

LU end-to-end journey data
 

In ,
Mike Bristow typed:
asdf wrote:
On 26 Apr 2007 22:55:58 -0700, MIG wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU (eg
Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Here is a complete list:

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/wheret...kets/1074.aspx

lists all NR stations with oyster capabilities.

From that list, at least:

Caledonian Road
Camden Road
Canonbury

are missing from your list and don't have LuL services (I'm not going
to try and recognize which NR stations on the TFL list have LuL
services too; I'll only get it wrong).


Caledonian Road doesn't have LuL services??

It does if you don't add the "and Barnsbury" bit!!



--
Bob

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On 23 Apr, 20:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:
Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique ID
on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should already
have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very small
part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and although
they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow "ticket
123456" through the system.

Presumably there is some way to identify a ticket within a station -
so that things like gate zig-zag can be identified?

Or do the gates just 'make it up' with the available data - thus
occassionaly closing out people with 'identical' tickets?

T

LU end-to-end journey data
 

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:58:49 +0100, Mike Bristow wrote:

Can you tell me of any NR stations which are not served by LU
(eg Wimbledon) which do sell Oyster?

Beckenham Junction
City Thameslink
East Croydon
Essex Road
Fenchurch Street
Greenwich
Lewisham
Limehouse
Mitcham Junction

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/wheret...kets/1074.aspx

lists all NR stations with oyster capabilities.

From that list, at least:

Caledonian Road
Camden Road
Canonbury

are missing from your list and don't have LuL services (I'm not
going to try and recognize which NR stations on the TFL list have
LuL services too; I'll only get it wrong).

I was using the list at
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ystercard.html .

At first I thought it just wasn't as up to date as the TfL one, but,
strangely, there are some stations on the NR list that aren't on the
TfL list as well as vice versa.

Anyway, the stations on the TfL list that aren't on the NR list (so
can be added to my previous list above) are as follows:

All NLL stations
South Hampstead
Kilburn High Road
Drayton Park
Ilford

The FCC area within which Oyster PAYG is accepted includes the GNC route
which presumably is why Drayton Park and Essex Road are in this list. Any
other such stations within FCC and other TOCs?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, wrote:

On 23 Apr, 20:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique
ID on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should
already have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very
small part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and
although they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow
"ticket 123456" through the system.

Presumably there is some way to identify a ticket within a station - so
that things like gate zig-zag can be identified?

A way to do that would be for the gate to write on the ticket that it's
just been used for exit at that station, and refuse tickets that have been
so marked. This is probably actually simpler, as it avoids having to have
the gates share knowledge of which tickets they've seen.

tom

--
The major advances in civilization are processes that all but wreck the
societies in which they occur. -- Alfred North Whitehead

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Tue, 1 May 2007 15:05:40 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, wrote:

On 23 Apr, 20:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique
ID on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should
already have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very
small part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and
although they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow
"ticket 123456" through the system.

Presumably there is some way to identify a ticket within a station - so
that things like gate zig-zag can be identified?

A way to do that would be for the gate to write on the ticket that it's
just been used for exit at that station, and refuse tickets that have been
so marked. This is probably actually simpler, as it avoids having to have
the gates share knowledge of which tickets they've seen.

I believe magnetic tickets hold the details of the last three uses.

LU end-to-end journey data
 

On Tue, 01 May 2007 18:24:50 +0100, James Farrar
wrote:

On Tue, 1 May 2007 15:05:40 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, wrote:

On 23 Apr, 20:47, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:09:41 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Also, am i right in thinking paper tickets either don't have a unique
ID on them, or that this isn't recorded by gates? If not, LU should
already have had this data.

Some magnetic tickets did have unique numbers but they were a very
small part of the overall population. The vast majority did not and
although they were counted by type at each gate you could not follow
"ticket 123456" through the system.

Presumably there is some way to identify a ticket within a station - so
that things like gate zig-zag can be identified?

A way to do that would be for the gate to write on the ticket that it's
just been used for exit at that station, and refuse tickets that have been
so marked. This is probably actually simpler, as it avoids having to have
the gates share knowledge of which tickets they've seen.

I believe magnetic tickets hold the details of the last three uses.

No they do not. They do not have sufficient capacity to do so. If a
ticket is valid and is accepted then certain key fields are updated. It
is this revised data that allows things like passback and zig zag to be
detected. Invalid tickets are not rewritten when put through a gate so
as to preserve the aspects of the ticket that are invalid.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!