In message . com,
" writes

Is there a website which includes details of "odd" stretches of the LU
network not normally used for passenger carrying journeys? I'm
thinking mainly about connecting links between different "lines". Are
any of these quite lengthy? Would most drivers working Line "X" and
Line "Y" be trained to work over a connecting line between the two? Is
the link from the District Line to the East London Line just a short
tunnel section with double-track?

I don't know of any specific websites offhand but Tubeprune is likely to
have something. I have a copy of the 2002 London Transport Quail map
which shows all the track plans for LU, hence these links. I obtained
it from the London(s) Transport Museum some time ago, I don't know if
they still sell them though.

There are only a few specific links on LU as most lines have some common
sections (ie. Hammersmith Hanger Lane Junction for the
District/Piccadilly) and transfers can be done easily over these. The
only ones I can think of a

East London District over St. Mary's Curve.
Victoria Piccadilly over the crossover just south of Finsbury Park.
Northern Piccadilly via the Kings Cross Loop (a short tunnel from
Kings Cross (Northern Northbound) to Kings Cross (Piccadilly Eastbound).
CentralMetropolitan/Piccadilly at Ruislip depot. (You can also get
from the CentralDistrict at Ealing Broadway, but this has been disused
for many years, I tink since Central line ATO, and I'm not sure if it's
deemed available any more)
BakerlooJubilee at Baker Street, although as the Bakerloo and Jubilee
used to be the same line once upon a time I'm not sure this counts as a
special link.

With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to
any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases.

All 'normal' Underground drivers are allocated to one depot and only
work the line that depot services. Any driver transferring from line X
to line Y would be deemed to have lost their knowledge of line X after 6
months, although within that time they could technically drive both
lines if their line X licence hasn't been withdrawn on transfer. The
only exception to this I can think of is the East London line where the
drivers also 'know' the road to Neasden for stock transfers there for
maintenance. This will stop from the end of the year anyway.

There are a number of Engineering train drivers who drive those little
yellow slug loco things on engineering trains who are required to have
knowledge of the whole combine. There are also a small number of test
train drivers who know everything as they are trained on al stocks on
all lines. They don't get out much as they spend all their lives on
refresher courses!

St. Mary's Curve is indeed double track but due to the sharp curves, the
signalling has been modified to only allow one train in the section at
any one time due to the possibility of trains touching each other.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to
any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases.

..... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by
being lowered by a crane.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, John Rowland wrote:

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to
any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases.

.... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by
being lowered by a crane.

Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I
reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you
could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the
tube lines.

tom

--
People don't want nice. People want London. -- Al

On 30 Apr, 12:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I
reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you
could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the
tube lines.

There have been proposals at various times for extensions north, to
meet the ex-Northern City Branch at Moorgate. However, these proposals
always mention that the Bank of England vaults get in the way. I think
in reality, the direction of the W&C platforms at Bank isn't
particularly suited to an extension at Moorgate.

Sam

Tom Anderson:
Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything?

"Sam":
There have been proposals at various times for extensions north, to
meet the ex-Northern City Branch at Moorgate.

Notably by the Metropolitan Railway just after they took over the latter
line in 1913.

However, these proposals always mention that the Bank of England
vaults get in the way. I think in reality, the direction of the W&C
platforms at Bank isn't particularly suited to an extension at Moorgate.

To save money, the W&C station (originally called City, not Bank)
was built with its platforms some distance west of the actual square
where the Bank is -- what's why passengers reach the surface by a long
inclined tunnel (which did not have a moving ramp until 1960) -- and as
I understand it they're under Queen Victoria Street. That would give
a reasonable alignment for an extension toward Moorgate station, if
nothing was in the way, and if it was desired. Of course, the combined
line could then only use tube-size trains, so that would be one more
reason not to do it.
--
Mark Brader "To err is human, but to really mess things up
Toronto you need a timetable planner!"
-- Richard Porter

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On 30 Apr, 12:52, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007, John Rowland wrote:
Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

With these, it is possible to get from any part of the Underground to
any other part, albeit by some very convoluted routes in some cases.

.... apart from the Waterloo & City Line, which trains can only reach by
being lowered by a crane.

Has consideration ever been given to connecting the W&C to anything? I
reckon you could plumb it into the Central line at Bank; don't know if you
could get it up to mainline level at Waterloo, or anywhere near any of the
tube lines.

I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly
Clapham
Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that
here
a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad
idea.

Can't see much advantage in connecting the W&C and Victoria, though...

Thanks

Henry

Henry wrote:

[W&C]

I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly
Clapham
Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that
here
a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad
idea.

Can't see much advantage in connecting the W&C and Victoria, though...


The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can
get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at
Waterloo).
This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the
other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people
onto already full trains with very few getting off.
The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit
proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars.

Spyke wrote:
Henry wrote:

[W&C]

I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly
Clapham
Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that
here
a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad
idea.
....

The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can
get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at
Waterloo).
This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the
other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people
onto already full trains with very few getting off.

I like the idea of "stopping" and "fast" services
on the W&C!

More deviously, what about running just Bank-Vauxhall(direct) and
Bank-Waterloo only? Would there be sufficient capacity to
turn more trains at Bank?

The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit
proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars.

That would certainly improve the capacity of the line overall.
I'm just wondering whether there could be benefits elsewhere
from separating out suburban and long-distance rail users before
they reach Waterloo.

Hth

Henry

On May 3, 10:48 pm, Henry wrote:
Spyke wrote:
Henry wrote:

[W&C]

I've long thought it should be extended to Vauxhall and possibly
Clapham
Junction, to spread the load a bit. There was a discussion about that
here
a long time ago, and I've forgotten why it turned out to be a bad
idea.
...

The problem with the W&C is that, because of the short trains, it can
get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks (with queues up the ramps at
Waterloo).
This isn't too bad if everyone gets on at one end and gets off at the
other, but if you had an intermediate station, you'd be packing people
onto already full trains with very few getting off.

I like the idea of "stopping" and "fast" services
on the W&C!

More deviously, what about running just Bank-Vauxhall(direct) and
Bank-Waterloo only? Would there be sufficient capacity to
turn more trains at Bank?

The only fix would be to extend the platforms at both stations to fit
proper length trains of 7 or 8 cars.

That would certainly improve the capacity of the line overall.
I'm just wondering whether there could be benefits elsewhere
from separating out suburban and long-distance rail users before
they reach Waterloo.

Hth

Henry-



There are problems with this, to put it mildly. Firstly, the Waterloo
and City didn't have any other tube lines to connect with when it was
built, because it connected the LSWR with the City, for which reason
it comes pretty much to the surface at both ends and would have to
tunnel down again through significant obstructions.

Secondly, it doesn't point anywhere vaguely in the direction of
Vauxhall. It actually points towards Elephant and Castle, so there
would have to be a big loop.

On 29 Apr, 16:25, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
St. Mary's Curve is indeed double track but due to the sharp curves, the
signalling has been modified to only allow one train in the section at
any one time due to the possibility of trains touching each other.

That begs the question of why did they build the tunnel that bit too
narrow?

B2003