On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through
Camden.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

tom

--
The idiots are winning.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though
not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known
from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown
he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about
this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

tom

--
The idiots are winning.

On 15 Jun, 16:19, Tom Anderson wrote:


But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

Like most incidents, this was a combination of errors - Driver given
wrong route; Driver accepted wrong route; Driver set off in wrong
direction.

It's also worth remembering that two drivers were at fault (assuming
that the driver given the wrong rout wasn't told to take it) - the
driver who set off in the wrong direction was the driver who had
swapped to the wrongly routed train.

So many opinions, so few facts. Why don't we discuss how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin?

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent -
though not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver
should have known from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31
shown he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing
about this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From
that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way
working except at the points controlling the crossover itself.

There is also, as I discovered this afternoon, an unilluminated STOP
sign (white letters on a red disc) on the left-hand tunnel wall at the
south end of the High Barnet northbound platform at Camden Town.

If the driver entered the rear cab by mistake, he must have been
mightily confused. The main passageway linking the two northbound
platforms is straight and level. As you enter the High Barnet platform
from the passageway, the starter repeater on the platform is clearly
visible. Even if he had, for some reason, used the small passageway at
the southern end of the platforms which is full of steps and bends, he
should immediately have recognised that he was at the wrong end of the
train. The High Barnet platform is a short one, and the rear set of
passenger doors do not open there. He would have had to squeeze past
those en route to the rear cab.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, BRB Class 465 wrote:

On 15 Jun, 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

It's possible, and there is a crossover at Mornington Crescent - though
not accessible from Camden Town, something the driver should have known
from line knowledge.

No? I assume you mean the crossover between signals E29 and E31 shown
he

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

What makes it not accessible? A genuine question - i know nothing about
this stuff. If it can't be got to from Camden, where can it?

That crossover allows trains to go Camden Town SB - Mornington Crescent SB
(reverse) - Camden Town NB. It also allows Mornington Crescent NB - Signal
E4 (reverse) - Mornington Crescent SB.

Although physically possible, there are no signals allowing a move from
Camden Town NB - Mornington Crescent SB via that crossover.

Peter Smyth

On 15 Jun, 18:08, "Richard J." wrote:
From a shunt manoeuvre from Mornington Crescent, I should think. From
that diagram, you can see that there are no signals permitting wrong-way
working except at the points controlling the crossover itself.

Arrangements for reversing at Mornington Crescent are as follows:-

Reversing north to south:-
Detrain customers and close the doors (there is currently no Limit of
Shunt board). When signal E2 clears, proceed but DO NO GO PAST signal
E4. Shut down, fully secure and change ends. When shunt signal E29
clears proceed over crossover into the southbound platform.

Reversing south to North:-
Detrain customers and close the doors in the platform. Shut down,
fully secure and
station starting signal E3 clears, proceed northbound over crossover.


BRB Class 465.

On 15 Jun, 12:42, Kev wrote:

Then that is really scarey that a highly professional, well paid
driver can't follow the simple signs that all the rest of us have to
follow.
Isn't the driver responsible for the safety of the passenger or does
that only extend from the train to the platform where somebody else is
responsible for evacuation in an emergency.

(Snipped Text above)

The driver made a mistake because he is a human, like you (maybe) and
I.
Unfortunately mistakes are made and just becuase his job is more
safety critical role does not reduce the fact that he is going to make
a mistake.

The best they can do is find out what lead the driver to make the
mistake and try and prevent it in the future.

How do your comments really help?

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:19:01 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through
Camden.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

But if the driver thought he was turning that train and taking it south
again, he might have been heading for the crossover. That isn't what he
was told to do, but there could have been a communications breakdown.

Shouldn't either have these have required a wrong line order?

tom

On Jun 15, 4:00 pm, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:39:16 +0100, Tom Anderson





wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Roland Perry wrote:

In message .com, at
04:42:05 on Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Kev remarked:

It seems odd that on reaching the HB platform he didn't think to turn
back on the direction he had headed from the train in the Edgware
platfom. How many times had this driver driven a train through Camden.

Isn't it simpler than that?

1) The drivers switched trains, and unless they both left them in some
nondirectional state with red lights at both ends, the new driver would have
had to reverse the trains "direction" in that respect.

2) The driver's end of the platforms have either CCTV monitors or large
mirrors. These are very easy to recognise.

Plus, the guy is a Northern line driver, and so presumably knows the whole
thing like the back of his hand. Any explanation which involves him not
being sure where he was strikes me as highly dubious.

I conclude that the driver thought he had been told to reverse.

Is that possible? Is there a crossover he could have been heading for? Our
survey (of Tubeprune's Northern line signalling diagrams):

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Ca...wn-lct5-10.gif

Says yes - there's one just north of Mornington Crescent; does that fit
with the description of the incident?

If it was a shunting move to get him onto the correct route, this
wouldn't be necessary.

Both trains would have to reverse through the junction and wait for
the correct routes.

But the story is the were taking the simpler option. to swap the crew
and passengers between each train.

After which they would both have continues each others' journeys.-



They wouldn't though, would they. They'd be continuing their own
journey.

That is, driver due to end up at Edgware goes into the Barnet
platform, so swaps trains so that he will still end up in Edgware, and
vice versa.

That would make sense. If the driver thought he was meant to reverse
the train to get back to the correct route, there would be no reason
for the drivers to swap trains.