Curiosity about delays
 

Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

Curiosity about delays
 

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:10:29 +0100, Nicola Redwood
wrote:

Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube
network.

I'm sure Stato will be along soon

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to
arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

I allow 90 mins for my 60 min journey from Finchley Rd to West Drayton but
never
normally see a delay of more than 15 mins.

--
Fig

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

There are different forms of delay.

The big one (and in my opinion the truest one) is the NAQS - Lost
Customer Hours. This is how much time of your life is "lost" when
travelling. This also forms a key part of the cost of delays to LUL's
Contractors: Metronet, Tubelines, edf, Connect, Network Rail etc.

The other sort of delay is Initial delay, which LUL usually quote in
their performance stats as being a delay over 15 minutes. These sorts
of delays are not normally within the control of LUL, hence why they
use it. SPADs and Staff Errors can cause delays over 15 mins,whereas
Operator Not Available may only be a few minutes.
Also the Initial Delay is a bit of a con, as it is only the Next train
to the Next station. So for instance an Amersham train from Baker
Street is only going to Wembley as there is no Operator, the next one
would be in 10 or 20 minutes time. The Initial Delay would only be 5
minutes - The next train from Wembley to Harrow.

Curiosity about delays
 

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:10:29 +0100, "Nicola Redwood"
wrote:

Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

Don't know if there is an official number but I'd guess from my
knowledge of incidents it was somewhere around the 5-8 minute level as
an average. Yes you get far worse disruptions than this but they are
relatively rare when set against the high volume of short duration
delays that may not be noticeable by some passengers.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

I'd allow at least 20 minutes BHR - Kings Cross, 10 mins to change and
wait for an Edgware train and then maybe 25 mins KX - Brent Cross
allowing for a possible crawl through Camden Town junctions. Are you
just going to Brent Cross station or catching a 210 bus on to the
shopping centre? I'd add at least another 20 mins if catching a bus as
at that time of day the bus service will be wrecked in the aftermath of
the school run congestion.

You have my sympathies though - that type of journey is not very easy on
London's transport network. Ideally you should be able to make a quick
orbital journey instead. I'd almost be tempted to try the Overground
train from BHR to Upper Holloway and then take a short walk to Archway
tube station to pick up the 210 bus direct to Brent Cross. Although the
train is only every 30 mins or so it shuttles across to Holloway quite
quickly. Might be worth an experiment one day to see how it goes. When
TfL take over the line they propose increasing the frequency to a train
every 15 minutes which I think would make it a more viable proposition
in terms of less risk of a long wait for a train.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 5, 11:13 pm, chunky munky
wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-

wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

There are different forms of delay.

The big one (and in my opinion the truest one) is the NAQS - Lost
Customer Hours. This is how much time of your life is "lost" when
travelling. This also forms a key part of the cost of delays to LUL's
Contractors: Metronet, Tubelines, edf, Connect, Network Rail etc.

The other sort of delay is Initial delay, which LUL usually quote in
their performance stats as being a delay over 15 minutes. These sorts
of delays are not normally within the control of LUL, hence why they
use it. SPADs and Staff Errors can cause delays over 15 mins,whereas
Operator Not Available may only be a few minutes.
Also the Initial Delay is a bit of a con, as it is only the Next train
to the Next station. So for instance an Amersham train from Baker
Street is only going to Wembley as there is no Operator, the next one
would be in 10 or 20 minutes time. The Initial Delay would only be 5
minutes - The next train from Wembley to Harrow.

Also just to add. It is up to the Service Controller (acting as a
Line Controller) or Service Manager is they want to to book a delay,
known as an Item.
The item is given an Initial Delay, as well as any cancellations or
reformed trains, short trippings, suspensions and brief incident
details. This is then given to an LUL Duty Manager or Supervisor to
investigate, and fill in the gaps.
All this data is recorded on a daily performance review called a
Failures & Delays sheet. Contractors look at this to see how much the
guess they will have to pay out each day in penalty abatements.

All the sums to work out costs, lost customer hours are done by a
separate office.

It is not past LUL to change certain LUL delays/cancellations round to
"fiddle" their perfomance statistics!

Curiosity about delays
 

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:29:41 -0700, chunky munky
wrote:

On Jul 5, 11:13 pm, chunky munky
wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-

wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

There are different forms of delay.

The big one (and in my opinion the truest one) is the NAQS - Lost
Customer Hours. This is how much time of your life is "lost" when
travelling. This also forms a key part of the cost of delays to LUL's
Contractors: Metronet, Tubelines, edf, Connect, Network Rail etc.

Actually it is NACHs - Nominally Accumulated Customer Hours which is the
name of the measure. A NAX is a unit of measure which equals 100 lost
customer hours.

All this data is recorded on a daily performance review called a
Failures & Delays sheet. Contractors look at this to see how much the
guess they will have to pay out each day in penalty abatements.

I can assure they don't guess. They have people paid to work this out in
very great detail minute by minute.

All the sums to work out costs, lost customer hours are done by a
separate office.

Yes - I run one of them.

It is not past LUL to change certain LUL delays/cancellations round to
"fiddle" their perfomance statistics!

I think you need to be careful about what is implied from your
statement. All sorts of people read these groups.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 5, 11:38 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:29:41 -0700, chunky munky



wrote:
On Jul 5, 11:13 pm, chunky munky
wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-

wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

On another note, but kinda related - how much extra time do you factor in
for delays whilst travelling to work to ensure you get there in time. I
leave at 8:30am for a journey from Blackhorse Road to Brent Cross to arrive
for 10am and still can often be 5 mins late

There are different forms of delay.

The big one (and in my opinion the truest one) is the NAQS - Lost
Customer Hours. This is how much time of your life is "lost" when
travelling. This also forms a key part of the cost of delays to LUL's
Contractors: Metronet, Tubelines, edf, Connect, Network Rail etc.

Actually it is NACHs - Nominally Accumulated Customer Hours which is the
name of the measure. A NAX is a unit of measure which equals 100 lost
customer hours.

All this data is recorded on a daily performance review called a
Failures & Delays sheet. Contractors look at this to see how much the
guess they will have to pay out each day in penalty abatements.

I can assure they don't guess. They have people paid to work this out in
very great detail minute by minute.

All the sums to work out costs, lost customer hours are done by a
separate office.

Yes - I run one of them.

--
Paul C

Admits to working for London Underground!

I was hoping youwould come along to comment fill in these gaps!

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube network.
The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a delay of 15
minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the overall average would be
lower than this.

I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent changes
to the LUL Rule book.

Curiosity about delays
 

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube
network. The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a
delay of 15 minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the
overall average would be lower than this.

I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
Just wondering what the average length of delay is across the Tube
network. The Customer Charter allows anyone to claim refunds for a
delay of 15 minutes or more. I'm guessing therefore that the
overall average would be lower than this.

I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Dont know what they're talking about! Lots of rules have been taken
out or been made more ambiguous than they were before and often no
longer require the use of Station Staff - though in reality they are
still sent as they save time.

The 15 min charter still applies and delays will still last as long as
they did before, based upon the usual factors such as time, location,
number of trains in the area, knowledge and capability of staff
dealing with the situation and availabilty of Train Operators.

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:

I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement; the new
concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.

In cases where there is a signal failure at a station starter there
are also new rules. The intention is that that these new rules will
speed up service.

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J." wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement; the new
concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.
No change there yet, except that it now needs to be authorised by the
Service Manager, and that the rear tripcock does not need to be cut
out. Any points will still need to be secured and an Operating
Official (as the person in charge) is still requied, to walk from the
station in the rear, after ensuring that adequate protection and
handsignalmen have been appointed.



In cases where there is a signal failure at a station starter there
are also new rules. The intention is that that these new rules will
speed up service.
Only on stations/lines with working Platform Edge Doors or In Cab
CCTV. The Train Operator will still need to receieve specific
authority from the person in the Signal Operator role if it is a Semi
Automatic, via Signal Post Telephone (if it works), Station Supervisor
or on the Northern and Central via Cab Secure Radio. Even then, if
points are involved they must be secured by Scotch & Clip - unless the
Train Operator can see a Route Secure Visual illuminated.

Curiosity about delays
 

"chunky munky" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J." wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement; the new
concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.
No change there yet, except that it now needs to be authorised by the
Service Manager, and that the rear tripcock does not need to be cut
out. Any points will still need to be secured and an Operating
Official (as the person in charge) is still requied, to walk from the
station in the rear, after ensuring that adequate protection and
handsignalmen have been appointed.


Are the changed rules about wrong direction movement anything to do with
report RAIB issued into the incident at High St Ken on 29 Apr 2006. Seems
as though many involved were pretty clueless about the old procedures.

http://tinyurl.com/2w49l6

Paul

Curiosity about delays
 

On Jul 7, 11:51 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"chunky munky" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J." wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement; the new
concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.
No change there yet, except that it now needs to be authorised by the
Service Manager, and that the rear tripcock does not need to be cut
out. Any points will still need to be secured and an Operating
Official (as the person in charge) is still requied, to walk from the
station in the rear, after ensuring that adequate protection and
handsignalmen have been appointed.

Are the changed rules about wrong direction movement anything to do with
report RAIB issued into the incident at High St Ken on 29 Apr 2006. Seems
as though many involved were pretty clueless about the old procedures.

http://tinyurl.com/2w49l6

Paul

More or less.... YES!

Also Station Supervisors MUST now be familiarised in the areas that
they are qualified to work (also following an incident with Traction
Current, a one-under and the London Ambulance Service). I don't know
how far LUL have got so far in starting this.

Eventually they want this new Connect Radio to replace a lot of work
done by Secure Telephones and Station Supervisors..... but the system
is not very good and potentially a deathtrap for mis-communication.

Regarding the incident at High Street Kensington. Communication and
geographically knowledge were key factors in my opinion. Also a Duty
Manager went by road to High Street, when they should have walked
along the track, after affording adequate protection.

Curiosity about delays
 

In message . com,
chunky munky writes

Also Station Supervisors MUST now be familiarised in the areas that
they are qualified to work (also following an incident with Traction
Current, a one-under and the London Ambulance Service). I don't know
how far LUL have got so far in starting this.

Oh yes, I know all about this one, don't I!
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Curiosity about delays
 

"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
...
In message . com, chunky
munky writes

Also Station Supervisors MUST now be familiarised in the areas that they
are qualified to work (also following an incident with Traction Current, a
one-under and the London Ambulance Service). I don't know how far LUL have
got so far in starting this.

Oh yes, I know all about this one, don't I!

One would hope that DSMs will be made slightly more familiar with their area
as well, that poor woman still hasn't got the curls out of her hair...
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

Curiosity about delays
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"chunky munky" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement;
the new concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.
No change there yet, except that it now needs to be authorised by
the Service Manager, and that the rear tripcock does not need to be
cut out. Any points will still need to be secured and an Operating
Official (as the person in charge) is still requied, to walk from
the station in the rear, after ensuring that adequate protection and
handsignalmen have been appointed.

Are the changed rules about wrong direction movement anything to do
with report RAIB issued into the incident at High St Ken on 29 Apr
2006. Seems as though many involved were pretty clueless about the
old procedures.

http://tinyurl.com/2w49l6

Hmm. According to the track diagram in that report you can't get from
Earl's Court platform 1 to Gloucester Road!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Curiosity about delays
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"chunky munky" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:10 pm, "Nicola Redwood" nicolaexternal-
wrote:
I believe some of the longest delays may be removed by recent
changes to the LUL Rule book.

Such as?

I believe there is a new idea about Wrong Direction Movement;
the new concept is in all cases tp carry on to the next station.
No change there yet, except that it now needs to be authorised by
the Service Manager, and that the rear tripcock does not need to be
cut out. Any points will still need to be secured and an Operating
Official (as the person in charge) is still requied, to walk from
the station in the rear, after ensuring that adequate protection and
handsignalmen have been appointed.

Are the changed rules about wrong direction movement anything to do
with report RAIB issued into the incident at High St Ken on 29 Apr
2006. Seems as though many involved were pretty clueless about the
old procedures.

http://tinyurl.com/2w49l6

Hmm. According to the track diagram in that report you can't get from
Earl's Court platform 1 to Gloucester Road!

So what - I don't think the point of the report is to study the routes
available from Earls Court to Gloucester road, is it?

Paul

Curiosity about delays
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"chunky munky" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 6, 11:30 pm, Offramp wrote:
On Jul 6, 6:06 pm, "Richard J."
wrote:

Offramp wrote:

Are the changed rules about wrong direction movement anything to
do with report RAIB issued into the incident at High St Ken on 29
Apr 2006. Seems as though many involved were pretty clueless about
the old procedures.

http://tinyurl.com/2w49l6

Hmm. According to the track diagram in that report you can't get
from Earl's Court platform 1 to Gloucester Road!

So what - I don't think the point of the report is to study the
routes available from Earls Court to Gloucester road, is it?

It does claim to be the track diagram of the area, that's all.

--
Colin Rosenstiel