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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
No real surprise that Thameslink would be on the HLOS agenda - given
the urgent need to rebuild London Bridge. It will also fill in the national investment gap before Crossrail starts up after th'Olympix. Quote LONDON, July 20 (Reuters) - Britain will announce a 30-year plan for the country's overloaded rail system next week, giving the go-ahead for a 3.5 billion pounds ($7.2 billion) upgrade to the Thameslink line across London, industry sources said. The paper will be launched against a backdrop of overcrowded carriages and above-inflation fare increases. But the UK's railways are nevertheless enjoying a boom as more and more travellers switch from their cars and from planes, due to congested roads and concerns about the environmental impact of flying. "Thameslink is going to be approved," an industry source told Reuters on Friday. "That means tripling capacity from eight trains an hour to 24 trains an hour on the core route between Brighton and Bedford through London." "You'll also get a rebuilt London Bridge station and a rebuilt Blackfriars station," said the source, adding that the government would also approve the planned 500 million pounds reconstruction of Birmingham's New Street station. Another industry source said the 30-year rail plan would put emphasis on developing the country's light rail network, including trams, which are cheaper to run on low volume routes and easier to maintain. "Thameslink will be one of the upfront priority projects, and they'll be keen to get the first phase done ahead of the 2012 Olympics," added that source. "The east-west pinch point at Reading will also be addressed." London's controversial Crossrail link still needs parliamentary approval, so can not be given the green light. "But I'm sure they'll say some warm words about it," said one of the sources. ((Reporting by Pete Harrison; Editingy by Mark Potter, Reuters Messaging: pete.harrison.reuters.comreuters.net; +44 207 542 7975)) ($1=.4877 Pound) Keywords: RAIL PLAN/ © Reuters 2007. All rights reserved. Unquote |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On 21 Jul, 09:05, Bob wrote:
No real surprise that Thameslink would be on the HLOS agenda - given the urgent need to rebuild London Bridge. It will also fill in the national investment gap before Crossrail starts up after th'Olympix. Where was the mention of those 1,000 new carriages?! |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"Bob" wrote in message ups.com... No real surprise that Thameslink would be on the HLOS agenda - given the urgent need to rebuild London Bridge. It will also fill in the national investment gap before Crossrail starts up after th'Olympix. Quote "Thameslink is going to be approved," an industry source told Reuters on Friday. "That means tripling capacity from eight trains an hour to 24 trains an hour on the core route between Brighton and Bedford through London." Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss the point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the current line... Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Bob" wrote in message ups.com... No real surprise that Thameslink would be on the HLOS agenda - given the urgent need to rebuild London Bridge. It will also fill in the national investment gap before Crossrail starts up after th'Olympix. Quote "Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then tim |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
In message , at 11:33:29 on Sat, 21
Jul 2007, tim..... remarked: "Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding. If the OP means that "funding has been allocated", then that's a useful step, but quite disjoint from the approval process. -- Roland Perry |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
Bob wrote in news:1185005123.278372.140640@
57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com: snip Another industry source said the 30-year rail plan would put emphasis on developing the country's light rail network, including trams snip I'm sure the people of Leeds will be delighted to hear this... -- Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:42:59 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
"Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding. If the OP means that "funding has been allocated", then that's a useful step, but quite disjoint from the approval process. I think we need to wait for the SOFA for that. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
would also approve the planned 500 million pounds reconstruction of
Birmingham's New Street station. Local press reports suggest that, at a high level, questions are still being asked of this project. I know New Labour needs little excuse to not spend on transport but Ruth Kelly is questioning value for money and quite rightly so on this one. 500M and there's to be no real capacity improvement what's the point of that just another building that will be (hopefully) nice to look at, but that will offer zero real transport improvement - waste, waste waste! Another industry source said the 30-year rail plan would put emphasis on developing the country's light rail network, including trams, which are cheaper to run on low volume routes and easier to maintain. When New Labour proposes a 30-year plan on transport it means only one thing - please don't bother us on this for another thirty years. Labour's priorities have, from day one, been to bleed us dry with taxes for education and health or more to the cynical point those Labour voters that work in education and health. Fact, and I honestly say this from a neutral perspective; until the Tories return to power there will be no investment on transport. That's the way it's been for the last ten years and that's how it will be for the next if Labour maintains office. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On 21 Jul, 16:31, allan tracy wrote:
would also approve the planned 500 million pounds reconstruction of Birmingham's New Street station. Local press reports suggest that, at a high level, questions are still being asked of this project. I know New Labour needs little excuse to not spend on transport but Ruth Kelly is questioning value for money and quite rightly so on this one. 500M and there's to be no real capacity improvement what's the point of that just another building that will be (hopefully) nice to look at, but that will offer zero real transport improvement - waste, waste waste! Another industry source said the 30-year rail plan would put emphasis on developing the country's light rail network, including trams, which are cheaper to run on low volume routes and easier to maintain. When New Labour proposes a 30-year plan on transport it means only one thing - please don't bother us on this for another thirty years. Labour's priorities have, from day one, been to bleed us dry with taxes for education and health or more to the cynical point those Labour voters that work in education and health. Fact, and I honestly say this from a neutral perspective; until the Tories return to power there will be no investment on transport. That's the way it's been for the last ten years and that's how it will be for the next if Labour maintains office. Are you expecting a 'land of milk and honey' for transport investment if the Tories are ever returned to power? Get real. Their track record (no pun intended) from 1979 to 1997 in transport investment was just as abysmal as Nu Labour's has been since 1997. Transport investment isn't even on Cameron's spin agenda. WTF |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
Are you expecting a 'land of milk and honey' for transport investment if the Tories are ever returned to power? Get real. Their track record (no pun intended) from 1979 to 1997 in transport investment was just as abysmal as Nu Labour's has been since 1997. The facts speak for themselves there's a huge list of stuff that got kicked off by the Tories. ECML electrification, WCML upgrade, Channel Tunnel and rail link, Docklands, Thameslink, Jubilee Line and Metros in Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, Manchester, Croydon, Birmingham and Nottingham. I could go on..... New Labour has given the go ahead, so far in over ten years, to precisely nothing. Were the Tory years milk and honey well from where we are standing now very definitely yes. New Labour does not do nuts and bolts they have a feminised Guardian reading agenda - they're just not interested. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
allan tracy wrote:
New Labour has given the go ahead, so far in over ten years, to precisely nothing. Ah - but think of all the schemes that they've announced (several times) will go ahead (at some unspecified point) in the future. ;-) |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 21, 5:55 pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
allan tracy wrote: New Labour has given the go ahead, so far in over ten years, to precisely nothing. Ah - but think of all the schemes that they've announced (several times) will go ahead (at some unspecified point) in the future. ;-) You are of course referring to Ruth Kelly's special barbed wire seats? |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:49:13 -0700, allan tracy wrote:
New Labour does not do nuts and bolts they have a feminised Guardian reading agenda - they're just not interested. Whenever I read the opinion pages of the Guardian, it is very much in favour of public transport investment. Perhaps you're thinking of the Daily Mail, which regrettably has far more influence over all the political parties. A |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 21, 6:17 pm, Anonymouse wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:49:13 -0700, allan tracy wrote: New Labour does not do nuts and bolts they have a feminised Guardian reading agenda - they're just not interested. Whenever I read the opinion pages of the Guardian, it is very much in favour of public transport investment. Perhaps you're thinking of the Daily Mail, which regrettably has far more influence over all the political parties. Every newspaper, every party and everyone are in favour of more investment in public transport, it's converting it into action that matters. This Labour government, like those before it, shows a bit too much interest in how we spend National wealth and too little interest in where that wealth may come from. This results in too much emphasis on public spending and too little on public investment. One of my old university lecturers once described to me the difference between socialism and capitalism. He reckoned that socialism is arguing about who gets what off the apple tree whereas capitalism is arguing about how we can grow more trees. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 21, 2:45 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote: Quote "Thameslink is going to be approved," Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss the point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the current line... Yes and no. As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area, but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure) and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the Thames towards the Sussex coast. I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET 375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter - for this ''step 1''. Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. What is known is that dual voltage Electrostars are already cleared over the existing TL route - and apart from 319s they are the only type that is so cleared. -- Nick |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 21, 7:57 pm, allan tracy wrote:
Every newspaper, every party and everyone are in favour of more investment in public transport, it's converting it into action that matters. This Labour government, like those before it, shows a bit too much interest in how we spend National wealth and too little interest in where that wealth may come from. This results in too much emphasis on public spending and too little on public investment. One of my old university lecturers once described to me the difference between socialism and capitalism. He reckoned that socialism is arguing about who gets what off the apple tree whereas capitalism is arguing about how we can grow more trees. The DfT's prebuttling of HLOS (aka Spinning) continues in the Sunday Times - cheers for the residents of Reading - can the Crossrail extension be far behind? (hold not your breath). Note the clever insertion of an intention to gouge passengers even further on off peak fares. The DfT giveth and the Treasury taketh away. Quote From The Sunday Times July 22, 2007 Green light for Thameslink 2000 Dominic O'Connell Sunday Times TRANSPORT ministers will this week give the go-ahead to the first phase of the long-delayed Thameslink 2000 project, a scheme that should boost rail capacity in London in time for the 2012 Olympics. But in statements on rail policy expected on Tuesday, ministers may also spark controversy by proposing the deregulation of "saver" fares, leading to more expensive journeys for millions of rail passengers. The first of the two statements will set out spending priorities up to 2014. The High Level Output Statement is likely to include Thameslink 2000, some 1,300 new carriages, the redevelopment of Birmingham New Street and Reading stations, and spending on signalling systems to bring them up to the latest European standards. It is also likely to give guidance on the amount of funding that will be provided to Network Rail to run the system over the period. The second statement, a 30-year vision for the network, is expected to dash hopes of a commitment to a new north-south high-speed line. Ministers are likely to say the plan needs more study to evaluate the benefits. A Department for Transport source said: "If there were to be such a thing it would need to prove its worth to ministers both in cost and environ-mental terms. It would need to make a strong argument." Nor is there expected to be any commitment to Crossrail, the east-west London route, with no announcement expected before the comprehensive spending review in October. Rail industry sources said on Friday that ministers were considering whether to proceed with a plan to deregulate saver fares cheap tickets bought well in advance of travel. On most routes, increases in saver fares are not allowed to be greater than inflation plus 1%. Deregulation would mean faster price increases. Rail companies are raising unregulated fares at about inflation plus 3% or more. One train company boss said: "If they go ahead with it, it will create a major row, particularly as rail passengers are already being hit with big increases on other fares. It would be a big step, and a political hot potato." The go-ahead for the Thameslink 2000 project will as its name suggests bring to an end years of wrangling over its future. The scheme, first mooted before the privatisation of British Rail, will bring a big increase in capacity on the Thameslink route, which runs from north to south through the capital, linking Bedford and Brighton. Longer trains will run more often, with peak frequency rising from eight trains an hour to 24. But only the northern half of the project will be given the go-ahead, because it can be completed in time for the Olympics. The decision will also avoid redevelopment around Borough market and Southwark cathedral. Thameslink 2000 has a key role to play in the Olympic transport plan because it calls at St Pancras, from which high-speed shuttles will run to the games village at Stratford. Plans for 1,000 new carriages have already been announced. The additional 300 included in this week's statement are understood to come largely from the extra rolling stock needed for the Thameslink expansion. The redevelopment of Birmingham and Reading stations will address two bottlenecks on the network. Reading will receive an extra platform, while Birmingham will be remodelled. Unquote |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 11:33:29 on Sat, 21 Jul 2007, tim..... remarked: "Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding. I thought that it had that. The last thing that stopped it was a Planning refusal. tim |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"D7666" wrote in message oups.com... As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area, but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure) and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the Thames towards the Sussex coast. I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET 375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter - for this ''step 1''. Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. Surely the phase 1 requirement to 'join' some of the services so that the Blackfriars and Farringdon alterations are done without any terminating trains getting in the way, but surely joining existing routes, if done in a balanced fashion, doesn't actually require a 'cascade' [1] because the routes will only take the required number of units out of the Southern and Southeastern fleets, ie it'll be more of a simple transfer? [1] using cascade in the sense that the transfer of units will lead to new replacements somewhere. Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"tim....." wrote in message ... "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 11:33:29 on Sat, 21 Jul 2007, tim..... remarked: "Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding. I thought that it had that. The last thing that stopped it was a Planning refusal. The only current DfT funding is £30M to keep the design team ticking over until the real funds become available... Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
In message , at 11:32:59 on Sun, 22
Jul 2007, tim..... remarked: "Thameslink is going to be approved," so that will make it almost 20 years late then It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding. I thought that it had that. No, finance is not yet approved. The last thing that stopped it was a Planning refusal. That did stop it for a while. Now they have planning approval, but still no finance. -- Roland Perry |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"D7666" wrote in message oups.com... On Jul 21, 2:45 am, "Paul Scott" wrote: Quote "Thameslink is going to be approved," Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss the point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the current line... Yes and no. As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area, but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure) and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the Thames towards the Sussex coast. I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET 375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter - for this ''step 1''. Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. What is known is that dual voltage Electrostars are already cleared over the existing TL route - and apart from 319s they are the only type that is so cleared. Interesting stuff, Nick - thanks. Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently to be overhauled. The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage? Can I also be the first to resurrect the "more 442s for Southern" rumour to indirectly replace the 377/2s? :-) |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On 22 Jul, 11:55, "John Tattersall"
wrote: "D7666" wrote in message oups.com... On Jul 21, 2:45 am, "Paul Scott" wrote: Quote "Thameslink is going to be approved," Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss the point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the current line... Yes and no. As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area, but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure) and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the Thames towards the Sussex coast. I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET 375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter - for this ''step 1''. Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. What is known is that dual voltage Electrostars are already cleared over the existing TL route - and apart from 319s they are the only type that is so cleared. Interesting stuff, Nick - thanks. Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently to be overhauled. The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage? Can I also be the first to resurrect the "more 442s for Southern" rumour to indirectly replace the 377/2s? :-)- Hide quoted text - As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to merge and has told Southern to use them instead. (remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have etc. etc.) From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where.. This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about. Sources are being a bit vague about detail as, whilst they were told this was all going ahead by the DfT about three weeks ago they have to keep quiet about it "officially" until the HLOS is announced etc. Tony |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 22, 3:55 am, "John Tattersall"
wrote: scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently to be overhauled. The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage? You are on the right tracks on components parts of some of the rumours. However, there were several permutations, none are confirmed, and some conflict, and I don't want to post any of them yet . -- Nick |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Jul 22, 7:52 am, wrote:
"D7666" wrote in message to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET 375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter - for this ''step 1''. This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car My wording was careful as was my care in not posting the rumour details. You are possibly better placed to get official lines than I am - but all I will say is I never implied '' ending the Southern service to Watford '' - I only said ''all 377/2s''. There are other appropriate dual voltage units in the whirlpool of rumours. -- Nick |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where.. This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about. I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet? I think the current buy of 377s is just a means of cascading the remaining 319s to strengthen existing FCC services - and will happen with or without Thameslink... Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:36 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to merge and has told Southern to use them instead. (remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have etc. etc.) From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where.. This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about. I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet? See above... Southern will get extra 442s in place of the 377s. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"Bob" wrote in message ups.com... On Jul 21, 7:57 pm, allan tracy wrote: Every newspaper, every party and everyone are in favour of more investment in public transport, it's converting it into action that matters. Quote From The Sunday Times July 22, 2007 Green light for Thameslink 2000 Dominic O'Connell Sunday Times TRANSPORT ministers will this week give the go-ahead to the first phase of the long-delayed Thameslink 2000 project, a scheme that should boost rail capacity in London in time for the 2012 Olympics. But in statements on rail policy expected on Tuesday, ministers may also spark controversy by proposing the deregulation of "saver" fares, leading to more expensive journeys for millions of rail passengers. The first of the two statements will set out spending priorities up to 2014. The High Level Output Statement is likely to include Thameslink 2000, some 1,300 new carriages, the redevelopment of Birmingham New Street and Reading stations, and spending on signalling systems to bring them up to the latest European standards. I hope this mean cab signalling. Will we finally see 140mph on the WCML and ECML? It is also likely to give guidance on the amount of funding that will be provided to Network Rail to run the system over the period. The second statement, a 30-year vision for the network, is expected to dash hopes of a commitment to a new north-south high-speed line. Ministers are likely to say the plan needs more study to evaluate the benefits. Because 3 previous studies showing 1:3 cost:benefit ratios are obviously not clear enough. A Department for Transport source said: "If there were to be such a thing it would need to prove its worth to ministers both in cost and environ-mental terms. It would need to make a strong argument." Nor is there expected to be any commitment to Crossrail, the east-west London route, with no announcement expected before the comprehensive spending review in October. But only the northern half of the project will be given the go-ahead, because it can be completed in time for the Olympics. The decision will also avoid redevelopment around Borough market and Southwark cathedral. Obviously that is a good reason to delay starting on the southern half by 5 years. Thameslink 2000 has a key role to play in the Olympic transport plan because it calls at St Pancras, from which high-speed shuttles will run to the games village at Stratford. Plans for 1,000 new carriages have already been announced. The additional 300 included in this week's statement are understood to come largely from the extra rolling stock needed for the Thameslink expansion. The redevelopment of Birmingham and Reading stations will address two bottlenecks on the network. Reading will receive an extra platform, For Crossrail? D |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:57 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to merge and has told Southern to use them instead. (remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have etc. etc.) From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where.. This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-cardiagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about. I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet? See above... Southern will get extra 442s in place of the 377s. But FCC were only asking for the rest of the 319s. At least that what Elaine Holt has said every time I seen, heard or read her on the subject. What FCC services will the 377s be for? They won't be able to interwork with anything else on their routes and presumably they or the 319s will have to carry coupling adapters. Isn't that also answered in the post quoted above? "From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where..This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern." |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
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HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
Anonymouse wrote:
Agree. The Croydon - Clapham - Watford service is very well used, especially in the peaks. Patronage has really built up since it was started. I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well be abandoned. -- John Ray |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
"John Ray" wrote in message ... Anonymouse wrote: Agree. The Croydon - Clapham - Watford service is very well used, especially in the peaks. Patronage has really built up since it was started. I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well be abandoned. The DfT have decided, rather than Virgin planning. However you also have to take into account the various West Midlands (Silverlink County) services, which will still stop at Watford Junction, so I don't think the situation is as bleak as you imagine; and presumably with GoVia being responsible for WM and Southern, there may be better marketing of the potential through journeys... Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:52 +0100, John Ray
wrote: I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well be abandoned. The former is true, but from experience the latter won't be. Its main patronage is commuters and other mid-distance travellers connecting from Silverlink to/from SWT-land, which is also how I use it. Despite it serving Gatwick (sometimes), you don't see a lot of what look like air travellers (with luggage) on it, as it's quicker to use GatEx. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
wrote in message ups.com... From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT has still to decide where.. There is an interview with Elaine Holt in Rail Professional Aug 07 in which she states: "Services from Sevenoaks to Kentish Town, will be First Capital Connect down to Blackfriars and on from there it will be the same train, the same driver, but it will be a Southeastern train." They use the term 'co-chair' in the article, but given Holt's BA background, perhaps she said 'code-share'?... Paul |
HLOS - Thameslink rumours from Reuters
On 22 Jul, 21:12, D7666 wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:55 am, "John Tattersall" wrote: scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and 375/6s. Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently to be overhauled. The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage? You are on the right tracks on components parts of some of the rumours. However, there were several permutations, none are confirmed, and some conflict, and I don't want to post any of them yet . -- Nick One of the supporting documents for the HLOS mentions the following permutation which could impact on the requirement for 375/6s. From page 8 of the NMF/HLOS Evidence Pack - NMF Baseline Timetable (2009/10): http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy...mfspecimenhlos "The following changes were made to the allocation of rolling stock: * The IKF class 376 fleet was increased by 30 vehicles by increasing train length from five-car to six-car; and * Ten additional 3-car class 508s were transferred to Merseyrail from IKF" I haven't seen this suggested anywhere else in discussion forums but would presumably institute a rolling-stock cascade on the IKF franchise. Why not 36 coaches for 36 376 units and 12 508s then spare? Jonathan |
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